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W. K. Lis said:
You can either use road space efficiently, or you can have cars.Transporting 200 people:🚌 in busses (0:31 minutes)🚋 in trams (0:32 minutes)🚶 walking (0:38...

View attachment 637166
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This graphic give a false impression. I live near Gerrard and River Streets, and my office is near Dufferin and Steeles. If we gave total priority to public transit along Gerrard/Carlton and Dufferin, with me taking the 506 streetcar to Queen's Park station, the subway to Sheppard West station, and the 105A bus north to my stop it would still take me about 70 mins (plus walking time). If I got in my car right now, with today's realistic traffic congestion, Google tells me it would take 48 mins door to door, saving me over 20 mins.

Let's do something more local with no changeovers and a dedicated ROW for streetcars. Let's go from Yonge and St. Clair to the Stockyards at St. Clair and Gunns Rd. It's 33 minutes by the 512 streetcar running on a dedicated ROW. But in my car, with today's 9am rush hour congestion it would take me 23 mins.

So, yes giving the TTC priority will get the 200 people to my office or to the Stockyards more efficiently, since I can only seat four passengers. But to get myself to either destination faster, the car is king.
 
Admiral Beez said:
This graphic give a false impression. I live near Gerrard and River Streets, and my office is near Dufferin and Steeles. If we gave total priority to public transit along Gerrard/Carlton and Dufferin, with me taking the 506 streetcar to Queen's Park station, the subway to Sheppard West station, and the 105A bus north to my stop it would still take me about 70 mins (plus walking time). If I got in my car right now, with today's realistic traffic congestion, Google tells me it would take 48 mins door to door, saving me over 20 mins.
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Which is why I too used to try and and wait until after 9 am, when I had to drive up to offices I had at the 401 or north of Steeles.

Though even at that point (only 20 minutes saved), I'd sooner take transit, as I'd spent a good chunk of that extra time doing the steps that I don't do otherwise - especially in poorer weather. Not to mention get some work done (or watch Netflix) while travelling.

Not everyone is blessed with such an easy commute though.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I wish we’d done bike lanes differently from the start, with a mantra to put them in without increasing automobile congestion. That’s what we’re going to end up with anyway. That means some places can’t have them, other places we’d narrow the car lanes or sidewalks and reduce/eliminate on-street parking. It also means eliminating left turns, better sequencing of traffic signals and utilizing other traffic planning tools to move more cars.
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some car lanes could be narrowed to 0 cm to fit bike lanes for example, I agree
 
bearcat said:
some car lanes could be narrowed to 0 cm to fit bike lanes for example, I agree
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Get rid of the left turn lanes to allow space for cycling lanes.

When they returned streetcars to their right-of-way on St. Clair Avenue West, they added left turn lanes, by taking away sidewalk space between 2007 and 2010. The streetcar right-of-way from 1913 until it was removed between 1928 and 1935, did not have left turn lanes. During the mixed traffic period, there were no left turn lanes. Many of the old streets within the older parts of Toronto do not have left turns. Some streets did narrow the lanes to fit in left turn lanes. We can narrow the narrow lanes and remove left turn lanes to fit in cycling lanes. Have pay for off-street parking for those who demand parking for their horseless carriages, maybe included in condo or rental buildings.
 
W. K. Lis said:
When they returned streetcars to their right-of-way on St. Clair Avenue West....
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Honestly, it’s baffling that not a single streetcar right-of-way in this city includes curb-separated bike lanes. And no, the shared sidewalk on Queen’s Quay doesn’t count. If we were already ripping up streets like St. Clair and Spadina, that was the perfect opportunity to integrate proper cycling infrastructure—but that foresight was completely missing. It’s frustrating that no one thought ahead when these corridors were being designed. Sure, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT includes bike lanes, so that’s at least something—but not a single dedicated streetcar route got the same treatment? It’s a classic example of this city’s short-sighted planning. We reduced road capacity by 50% without even adjusting traffic signals, turn lanes, or anything else to manage the resulting congestion. Where did they think all those displaced drivers would go?
 
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Admiral Beez said:
Honestly, it’s baffling that not a single streetcar right-of-way in this city includes curb-separated bike lanes. And no, the shared sidewalk on Queen’s Quay doesn’t count. If we were already ripping up streets like St. Clair and Spadina, that was the perfect opportunity to integrate proper cycling infrastructure—but that foresight was completely missing. It’s frustrating that no one thought ahead when these corridors were being designed. Sure, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT includes bike lanes, so that’s at least something—but not a single dedicated streetcar route got the same treatment? It’s a classic example of this city’s short-sighted planning. We reduced road capacity by 50% without even adjusting traffic signals, turn lanes, or anything else to manage the resulting congestion. Where did they think all those displaced drivers would go?
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Lets not completely rewrite history.

The Spadina Streetcar ROW was approved under the NDP government of the early 1990s.........there were zero cycle tracks in existence in Toronto at the time, and zero proposed.
We're actually before bike lanes on St. George Street at that time.....they would arrive in the mid to late 90s.
Cycle Tracks on Spadina were simply not going to be proposed at that time.

Should they have been? Sure........but that's like saying we should have built a subway under Queen St. at the turn of the 20thC.............. swell idea....... but as we didn't build the first leg of Yonge for another 3 decades........

*****

By the time St. Clair came along........ bike lanes were considered. There was lots of lobbying..........remember St. Clair had been 3 lanes each way........it was already going to be reduced to 2 by the streetcar.
Cycle tracks would have meant making that one lane each way, and eliminating at least 1/2 of all the parking if not 100%.

If you said that's the right idea, I'm with you..........but it wasn't going to happen then.

Its not that didn't get thought of..........its that politicians of the day made a different call, because they wanted to get re-elected.

Here's an excerpt from this:

1742425076926.png


At the same time, there was a desire for bicycle lanes. There were concerns on the reduction of
sidewalk space for pedestrians and at the same time the narrow width of lanes was a concern.
Lastly, there were concerns on the limited funding available for streetscaping and beautification
of the reconstructed right-of-way.

So it was thought of and was considered...........but the trade offs were weighed and in that era, bike lanes lost.
 
Northern Light said:
Lets not completely rewrite history.

The Spadina Streetcar ROW was approved under the NDP government of the early 1990s.........there were zero cycle tracks in existence in Toronto at the time, and zero proposed.
We're actually before bike lanes on St. George Street at that time.....they would arrive in the mid to late 90s.
Cycle Tracks on Spadina were simply not going to be proposed at that time.

Should they have been? Sure........but that's like saying we should have built a subway under Queen St. at the turn of the 20thC.............. swell idea....... but as we didn't build the first leg of Yonge for another 3 decades........

*****

By the time St. Clair came along........ bike lanes were considered. There was lots of lobbying..........remember St. Clair had been 3 lanes each way........it was already going to be reduced to 2 by the streetcar.
Cycle tracks would have meant making that one lane each way, and eliminating at least 1/2 of all the parking if not 100%.

If you said that's the right idea, I'm with you..........but it wasn't going to happen then.

Its not that didn't get thought of..........its that politicians of the day made a different call, because they wanted to get re-elected.

Here's an excerpt from this:

View attachment 638027

At the same time, there was a desire for bicycle lanes. There were concerns on the reduction of
sidewalk space for pedestrians and at the same time the narrow width of lanes was a concern.
Lastly, there were concerns on the limited funding available for streetscaping and beautification
of the reconstructed right-of-way.

So it was thought of and was considered...........but the trade offs were weighed and in that era, bike lanes lost.
Click to expand...

Spadina would probably be wide enough to fit cycle tacks, no? In place of the parking laybys. Most of the streetlights wouldn't even have to be moved.

And it connects to cycling infrastructure on Bloor, Harbord, College, Adelaide, Richmond, Wellington, Fort York Boulevard and MGT.

I guess technically Blue Jays Way, Beverly, St. George parallel it, but there's isn't really any destinations on those streets.

If the city in the future has to tailor cycling infrastructure around not removing car lanes, I think it's a good place for them. It's already fairly busy with bicycles, in my experience actually more so than University that has cycle tacks. Probably as there is actually more places to go to on Spadina, and also more restaurants for deliveries to be picked up from.
 
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bearcat said:
Spadina would probably be wide enough to fit cycle tacks, no? In place of the parking laybys.
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Not at the intersections, where there is no parking.

There's the tough bit.

So, if you measured the Spadina/Dundas cross-section, IF you wanted to maintain 2 lanes of traffic, plus a left hand turn lane.........there's no chance.

The current cross section (curb to streetcar ROW) is a hair under 10M.

You need 2.5M for the left hand turn lane, and 3M for the other 2, which is 8.5M......... you would have a 1M bike lane (even unprotected you wouldn't want to go under 1.5, and really 1.8 would be strongly preferred. If you want it protected, you need, 2.5M more or less..........and you just don't have it.

Can you do it? Sure.......but a travel lane is coming out.

Or the left hand turn lane is coming out.

The thing is, you need to be a consistent in your choice............., and on Spadina, removing the left turn lanes means a 24/7 ban on left turns.

***

Also, south of Adelaide, there is no parking.........only travel lanes.
 
Northern Light said:
Not at the intersections, where there is no parking.

There's the tough bit.

So, if you measured the Spadina/Dundas cross-section, IF you wanted to maintain 2 lanes of traffic, plus a left hand turn lane.........there's no chance.

The current cross section (curb to streetcar ROW) is a hair under 10M.

You need 2.5M for the left hand turn lane, and 3M for the other 2, which is 8.5M......... you would have a 1M bike lane (even unprotected you wouldn't want to go under 1.5, and really 1.8 would be strongly preferred. If you want it protected, you need, 2.5M more or less..........and you just don't have it.

Can you do it? Sure.......but a travel lane is coming out.

Or the left hand turn lane is coming out.

The thing is, you need to be a consistent in your choice............., and on Spadina, removing the left turn lanes means a 24/7 ban on left turns.

***

Also, south of Adelaide, there is no parking.........only travel lanes.
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I understand the constraints at intersections, and I conceed I am not an urban planner or engineer. However I feel there is room at for example Spadina and Dundas to narrow the sidewalk by 0.5 meters lets say (yes that would mean moving the curb and street lights) and fit a 1.5 meter bike lane w/no protection. It's not ideal, but I thinks it's doable. The sidewalk are pretty wide there as is.

And yes, that's true south of Adelaide there is no laybys. So that will run afoul of Ford. My mistake. I am just to eager to get the bike lanes there 😂
 
bearcat said:
I understand the constraints at intersections, and I conceed I am not an urban planner or engineer. However I feel there is room at for example Spadina and Dundas to narrow the sidewalk by 0.5 meters lets say (yes that would mean moving the curb and street lights) and fit a 1.5 meter bike lane w/no protection. It's not ideal, but I thinks it's doable. The sidewalk are pretty wide there as is.

And yes, that's true south of Adelaide there is no laybys. So that will run afoul of Ford. My mistake. I am just to eager to get the bike lanes there 😂
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Read your messages, LOL
 
W. K. Lis said:
In Ontario, cyclists should generally ride on the right side of the road, at least one meter from the curb or parked cars, but can use any part of the lane for safety, including the centre, and must obey bicycle traffic signals if present.

In Toronto, traffic lane widths generally range from 3.0 to 4.3 metres. Subtract 1 metre for a cyclist from the curb or parked car, and allowing ~1.5 metres clearance for motorists to pass the cyclists, and allowing ~60-75 centimetres width for a two-wheeled bicycle, that means a bicycle could use an ENTIRE traffic lane.
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Almost invariably, the safe thing to do when biking in Toronto is to bike in the centre of the lane. Biking towards the edge of the lane, gives drivers the illusion that they can pass you safely without changing lanes, when there is rarely enough space to do so. I will move over if there's enough room in the lane for a curb buffer, my handlebars, a metre of clearance, and a car width for passing. Which there almost never is.
 
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