[ThenWhat]

Latest post by Michael Lindsay with some details about the switches.

View attachment 707673

Quote from M. Lindsay's post:
"... we decided with the TTC to keep bus service ready in parallel for this ramp up phase ..."

Strange for this information to come from Metrolinx, not from TTC. Or was there another communication about this from TTC, which I missed? Not quite sure what "bus service ready" means. As of today, TTC maps and schedules do not show any bus running in parallel with Line 6. So is there a bus service there, or are only buses ready in case they are needed?

 

[Steve X]

Quote from M. Lindsay's post:
"... we decided with the TTC to keep bus service ready in parallel for this ramp up phase ..."

Strange for this information to come from Metrolinx, not from TTC. Or was there another communication about this from TTC, which I missed? Not quite sure what "bus service ready" means. As of today, TTC maps and schedules do not show any bus running in parallel with Line 6. So is there a bus service there, or are only buses ready in case they are needed?

Cause the TTC doesn’t have anyone working in the communication department.

What’s more frustrating is the streetcars are able to keep up in this weather while ML can’t.

 

[Bojaxs]

Cause the TTC doesn’t have anyone working in the communication department.

What’s more frustrating is the streetcars are able to keep up in this weather while ML can’t.

Doesn't the Finch West LRT use more complex switches compared to the TTC's streetcars?

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Doesn't the Finch West LRT use more complex switches compared to the TTC's streetcars?

The problem isn't with the complexity of the switches. (Which yes Line 6 uses more complex switches and control systems). The problem lies with the switch heaters not being tuned right to keep the sensors and mechanical parts clear of snow and ice. Unlike the single point switches of the legacy streetcar system, the switches on Line 6 aren't easy to move into position manually, so having the switch heaters properly working is highly important. Line 5 shouldn't have nearly the same amount of problems on the surface section because Crosslinx decided to not embed the switches and so they use forced-air natural gas heaters rather than the electric radiant heaters used on Line 6.

 

[urbanclient]

Doesn't the Finch West LRT use more complex switches compared to the TTC's streetcars?

Double point or double blade switches are generally considered more reliable for winter operations than the antiquated single point switches on the streetcar network. Leave it to Metrolinx and Co. to somehow flip this though. We live in bizarro world in almost every sense of the word. Transit mode choice for past and upcoming Metrolinx projects. Rolling stock choice and platform length underbuilt for the future. Astronomical overbuilding in other areas @lastcommodore please post what you know about Line 6 vs. T9 here. The list goes on.

 

[reaperexpress]

So, I know this is just anecdotal evidence based on a tiny sample size of 1, but I rode this line end to end twice in the same day on Dec. 23rd, and had a positive experience. There were multiple times I clocked the train going over 50 km/h, once even hitting just over 60. Total travel time was about 30 minutes flat. I couldn't understand what everyone was whining about so much here and on social media. Maybe I got lucky? It certainly wasn't crawling as anticipated.

It was mildly busy - there were people getting on/off at pretty much every stop. The driver absolutely gunned it between stops though, which really surprised me given the negative word of mouth. It was moving so fast at points that it prompted me to take out my phone to check the speed...

30 minutes flat is unbelievable. My trips ranged from 49 to 53 minutes. I don't see how a trip could be that fast given the TTC's speed restrictions are programmed in the LRV. If the train exceeds the programmed speed limit, the emergency brakes come on. The one exception I noticed is that some intersections are programmed as 35 km/h, but operators slow to 25 at all intersections regardless of whether they're programmed as 25 or 35. So driving 35 instead of 25 could be one way your operator saved some time. But that alone wouldn't save 15-20 minutes compared to the trips the rest of us experienced.

This massive travel time difference could potentially support my theory that the Transit Signal Priority is not calibrated correctly. If they designed the TSP based on the original travel times and then the TTC came in later with their 25 km/h limits, then LRVs will often just miss the green light that TSP intended them to use, and have to sit through the entire red light duration. A poorly calibrated TSP system isn't just worse than a well-calibrated system, it can actually be even worse than not having TSP at all. At least with no TSP, trams will only need to wait through half the red light duration on average. If TSP is consistently underestimating the LRT travel times, they will frequently need to wait through the entire red duration.

 

[Steve X]

30 minutes flat is unbelievable. My trips ranged from 49 to 53 minutes. I don't see how a trip could be that fast given the TTC's speed restrictions are programmed in the LRV. If the train exceeds the programmed speed limit, the emergency brakes come on. The one exception I noticed is that some intersections are programmed as 35 km/h, but operators slow to 25 at all intersections regardless of whether they're programmed as 25 or 35. So driving 35 instead of 25 could be one way your operator saved some time. But that alone wouldn't save 15-20 minutes compared to the trips the rest of us experienced.

This massive travel time difference could potentially support my theory that the Transit Signal Priority is not calibrated correctly. If they designed the TSP based on the original travel times and then the TTC came in later with their 25 km/h limits, then LRVs will often just miss the green light that TSP intended them to use, and have to sit through the entire red light duration. A poorly calibrated TSP system isn't just worse than a well-calibrated system, it can actually be even worse than not having TSP at all. At least with no TSP, trams will only need to wait through half the red light duration on average. If TSP is consistently underestimating the LRT travel times, they will frequently need to wait through the entire red duration.

If the operators are driving at the speed they are suppose to drive at and the TSP are functional along with a properly programmed green wave, it won't take so long to transverse the line. If the operator gets held up at a stop, that would just push them to the next green wave which is 1-1.5 minutes behind. Then the train would able to continue get sequential greens for the next 5-10 lights. There will be some reds as they can't get the green waves to sync in both directions. The traffic coordinators can actual program the green wave to give priority to the busier "peak" demand direction if they want.

I doubt TO actually employs these advance traffic programing cause you often see traffic waiting a whole minute to pass just to arrive at a red on the following side street just for one car or person to cross the road. This actually causes drivers to aggressively speed to beat these stupidly design lights cause you can get stuck in multiple lights like this adding 5-10 minutes to any drive.

I don't ride the line often to know if the mid block crossing between Tobermory and Sentinel would turn red for pedestrians while a train is approaching. Something tells me the city's stupid programming does stop trains like this.

 

[reaperexpress]

If the operators are driving at the speed they are suppose to drive at and the TSP are functional along with a properly programmed green wave, it won't take so long to transverse the line. If the operator gets held up at a stop, that would just push them to the next green wave which is 1-1.5 minutes behind. Then the train would able to continue get sequential greens for the next 5-10 lights. There will be some reds as they can't get the green waves to sync in both directions. The traffic coordinators can actual program the green wave to give priority to the busier "peak" demand direction if they want.

Getting pushed to the next green wave (about 2 minutes behind) is a pretty substantial delay in addition to whatever delay caused it to miss the green wave in the first place. Then if you're depending on coordination to achieve the high speeds, there's no way for the train to ever catch up to the schedule. This is the main reason that transit signal coordination (a.k.a. "passive TSP") is not a good solution for lines with frequent stops. There are too many opportunities for longer-than-expected dwell times. The Waterloo LRT makes extensive use of dynamic green waves (customised for each train) but that works because they have long strings of signals without any tram stop in between. The Finch LRT has a stop at about every second signal so the green wave woud be at most two intersections long.

I doubt TO actually employs these advance traffic programing cause you often see traffic waiting a whole minute to pass just to arrive at a red on the following side street just for one car or person to cross the road. This actually causes drivers to aggressively speed to beat these stupidly design lights cause you can get stuck in multiple lights like this adding 5-10 minutes to any drive.

The City does have active transit signal priority installed at 440 signals. As far as I'm aware the only place they use passive TSP (i.e. signal coordination for streetcars) is between the minor intersections on King Street.

I don't ride the line often to know if the mid block crossing between Tobermory and Sentinel would turn red for pedestrians while a train is approaching. Something tells me the city's stupid programming does stop trains like this.

It does turn red as they're approaching, which suggests that the TSP is set up incorrectly. If it was accurately estimating the arrival time of LRVs, it would have extended the LRT green so the pedestrian phase doesn't start until the LRT has passed.

 

[wheelloader]

Quote from M. Lindsay's post:
"... we decided with the TTC to keep bus service ready in parallel for this ramp up phase ..."

Strange for this information to come from Metrolinx, not from TTC. Or was there another communication about this from TTC, which I missed? Not quite sure what "bus service ready" means. As of today, TTC maps and schedules do not show any bus running in parallel with Line 6. So is there a bus service there, or are only buses ready in case they are needed?

If I read the lines behind correctly, it means Metrolinx is going to pay TCC, which TCC didn't plan originally, extra for having some bus service standby. So other than the tax payer, every one is happy.

 

[hawc]

It's almost like Streetcars/LRT is some romantic notion we fell in love with years ago that we still try and justify today and it never really works.

We'd be way better served by less cool buses and underground subways.

It's a lesson we're going to be taught time and time again I'm sure.

 

[hw621]

View attachment 708265

It's almost like Streetcars/LRT is some romantic notion we fell in love with years ago that we still try and justify today and it never really works.

We'd be way rather served by less cool buses and underground subways.

It's a lesson we're going to be taught time and time again I'm sure.

How is this even remotely acceptable for a brand new line?!

 

[nfitz]

How is this even remotely acceptable for a brand new line?!

How was opening it with massive switch problems remotely acceptable. Someone at TTC screwed up this by accepting such a shoddy system.

 

[urbanclient]

If I read the lines behind correctly, it means Metrolinx is going to pay TCC, which TCC didn't plan originally, extra for having some bus service standby. So other than the tax payer, every one is happy.

Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution. They're going to be running buses for the next 30 years:

A near 3 hour outage due to what appears to be a stuck switch.

 

[hw621]

FFS

 

[Railrunner]

View attachment 708265

It's almost like Streetcars/LRT is some romantic notion we fell in love with years ago that we still try and justify today and it never really works.

We'd be way better served by less cool buses and underground subways.

It's a lesson we're going to be taught time and time again I'm sure.

At the very least completely grade separated rapid transit is the bare minimum at 100s of millions of dollars per mile.

Having conversations about traffic conflict at that price point is ridiculous. The problem has been solved even in Toronto subways or even the technology the Line 3 in Scarborough was using from the 80s is far superior to the antiqued implantation of LRT tech in FWLRT.