[Westey]

We certainly should push for better than what was delivered.

However, it is important not to conflate different things.

The vehicles/rolling stock here are perfectly capable of being speedy. It is a choice to operate them slowly. You can operate subways at different speeds too, Toronto runs subways in regular rather than high-rate motor operation which would provide more speed. We've also had issues w/extended or delayed door opening/closing times, particularly on Line 1.

Again, choices. Now there are reasons for said choices, its not just whimsy, but that doesn't mean the TTC got it right.

****

In respect of Finch, we need to be clear, a subway was not ever going on this route. Period. So litigating that would be silly. The alternatives were 'Do nothing'; some variant of BRT, or simply a modified version of what was built.

Actually, Rob Ford and Georgio Mammoliti suggested subway. Unfortunately, they, or any of the transit "experts" in Toronto could not imagine any type of subway other than 150m long train fully buried subway. The reason - if 150m subway is the only option than on-street LRT will look better.

 

[urbanclient]

It'll be interesting how the Ontario line is when it finally opens. It's totally new and different technology compared to the other lines, not just an extension of an existing one

I believe Metrolinx can totally screw up a subway too, so everyone here thinking that a line 6 subway would have been so much better than the LRT, I say wait and see

Again this is almost entirely a myth. Who in their right mind would think Line 6, on relatively low density Finch, should've been a subway? I'm not discounting the existence of one or two active members who think a ≤10 km stubway would be more appropriate than a tram, but can we get past this notion that the dozens, if not hundreds of relatively pro-subway contributors in this thread think Line 6 should've been a subway? This is ludicrous and hearing this over and over again is incredibly tiresome.

[They] never said that Line 6 should've been a subway. Line 6 bad =/= Line 6 should've been a subway.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Actually, Rob Ford and Georgio Mammoliti suggested subway. Unfortunately, they, or any of the transit "experts" in Toronto could not imagine any type of subway other than 150m long train fully buried subway. The reason - if 150m subway is the only option than on-street LRT will look better.

If we're complaining about the quality of transit planning, it is unbecoming to cite Giorgio Mammoliti as a counterexample.

The mere fact that someone said the word "subways" doesn't make them some oracle of genius on this topic.

 

[Burnt creek]

It'll be interesting how the Ontario line is when it finally opens. It's totally new and different technology compared to the other lines, not just an extension of an existing one

I believe Metrolinx can totally screw up a subway too, so everyone here thinking that a line 6 subway would have been so much better than the LRT, I say wait and see

I have been been following the transit saga in this city since day one. I do not ever recall anyone ever advancing the notion that a subway on that line was ever an option (ie.: not anyone serious anyways). What people did say (like me) is that: the plan of surface street level rail (whether mixed in with traffic or not) with 18 stops in 10 kilometers is a poor service (FOR THE PUBLIC) because its too slow. And, Its no better or worst than the existing bus service. To me that has been obvious from the very second that I first saw or heard of the plans.

Its frustrating how public officials cleverly work the PR by diverting the public attention when there is crisis like like. They obscure the real problems by diverting attention to secondary things like signal prioritization, operational issues etc etc. This is a PR play whose objective is to protect their public image and true objectives of those official and they do it by diverting attention away from the true problem and towards the minor things that can be fixed. The true problem is that a tram service (like this) is a poor service for this kind of area & most areas in Toronto.

 

[Thaboss]

The cost difference between LRT and Subways in Toronto is 4.7x, Finch LRT per km compared to the Ontario Line per km, The Ontario line is using a lot of elevated sections and and GO right of way so most likely the difference is 5x+ to build a subway instead of an LRT. Finch West costs 3.7Billion as an LRT and would cost around 17.5 Billion as a Subway at the same per km as the Ontario line..

Their are waaay too many factors to ontario line that push up the cost meaningfully that wouldn't apply to finch and that's before the fact that ontario line is being procured in a post covid world.

Imo this conversation is simply not helpful at all

 

[Westey]

I have been been following the transit saga in this city since day one. I do not ever recall anyone ever advancing the notion that a subway on that line was ever an option (ie.: not anyone serious anyways). What people did say (like me) is that: the plan of surface street level rail (whether mixed in with traffic or not) with 18 stops in 10 kilometers is a poor service (FOR THE PUBLIC) because its too slow. And, Its no better or worst than the existing bus service. To me that has been obvious from the very second that I first saw or heard of the plans.

Its frustrating how public officials cleverly work the PR by diverting the public attention when there is crisis like like. They obscure the real problems by diverting attention to minor things like signal prioritization, operational issues etc etc. This is a PR play whose objective is to protect their public image and true objectives of those official and they do it by diverting attention away from the true problem and towards the minor things that can be fixed. The true problem is that a tram service (like this) is a poor service for this kind of area.

It was talked about going in the hydro corridor and being grade-separated and going to Seneca College. The GO ALRT was even more ambitious.
The pro on-street LRT people controlled the narrative for at least a decade (2007 to 2017) - that was enough time to ensure that we got what we got.

 

[Thaboss]

Its frustrating how public officials cleverly work the PR to divert the public attention when there is crisis like like. They obscure the real problems by diverting attention to minor things like signal prioritization, operational issues etc etc.

I respectfully disagree.

The line has been built. We have what we have. Stations are not about to be deleted, so the next best thing is to solve those comparatively low hanging fruit issues.

Question of grade separation. Stop spacing. Etc. Are for the next transit project, whether you like it or not.

 

[hw621]

The speed we build transit in Toronto, we would have to wait 10 more years if this line had been a subway. But hey, the ridership may have been there by then...Who knows lol

 

[tkamb]

It'll be interesting how the Ontario line is when it finally opens. It's totally new and different technology compared to the other lines, not just an extension of an existing one

I believe Metrolinx can totally screw up a subway too, so everyone here thinking that a line 6 subway would have been so much better than the LRT, I say wait and see

Honolulu with zero experience can still run their metro system pretty well, they just pay more for the expertise. Hitachi gladly send someone for a Hawaii working holiday.

It appars Metorlinx's model is a systematic failure on, rattle with lawsuits, just created a perfect storm. Combining the worst of private and public sector, with no accountability.
Line 6 we clearly see lack of coordination. TTC/City is sometime clueless but taking all the blame. With Line 5 and Ontario Line are more technically complicated, there's no positive sign this PPP model will work.

If ON Gov still want PPP, TTC might as well just "franchised" its name out. Only do the fare collection, hand the operation and maintenance over to private. Really, it may end up better like Waterloo. Or TTC should take back both operation and maintenance.

 

[TRONto]

Honolulu with zero experience can still run their metro system pretty well, they just pay more for the expertise. Hitachi would gladly send someone.

What Toronto seeing is a systematic failure on new lines, someone created a perfect storm. Combining the worst of private and public sector, with no accountability.
Line 6 we clearly see lack of coordination. TTC/City is sometime clueless, sometime out of control but still taking all the blame. With Line 5 and Ontario Line are more technically complicated, there's no positive sign this PPP will work.

If ON Gov still want PPP, TTC might as well just "franchised" its name out. Only do the fare collection, hand the operation and maintenance over to private. Really, it may end up better like Waterloo.

TTC built fine on their own in the past. The most recent "debacles" of rebuilding St Clair to a ROW and building the YUS extension to Vaughan had political interference all over them. As a result of the political interference, the building of these projects were deemed a failure and we were told the private sector would do better and here we are with Line 5 +6.

 

[turbanplanner]

TTC built fine on their own in the past. The most recent "debacles" of rebuilding St Clair to a ROW and building the YUS extension to Vaughan had political interference all over them. As a result of the political interference, the building of these projects were deemed a failure and we were told the private sector would do better and here we are with Line 5 +6.

Aside from Signal priority how could the TTC do better for St Clair?

The speeds now are LOWER than with mixed traffic

 

[Steve X]

Aside from Signal priority how could the TTC do better for St Clair?

The speeds now are LOWER than with mixed traffic

When two of the dumbest organizations got together to build a transit line, the line gets the cons from both organizations.

TTC staffs don't even know what other cities are doing around the world, nor do they want to know. They just keep doing it their way.

Instead of finding new innovate ways to improve operation, they just collect paycheques and call it a day. The 510 Spadina runs slower than the 77 Spadina bus it replaced at opening in 1997 and still do today. This Line 6 BS is no new discovery. Just history repeating itself and if that continues to happen, we can all expect Line 6 operating slower than the 36 Finch West bus it replaced 20 years down the road.

 

[duty free]

The cost difference between LRT and Subways in Toronto is 4.7x, Finch LRT per km compared to the Ontario Line per km, The Ontario line is using a lot of elevated sections and and GO right of way so most likely the difference is 5x+ to build a subway instead of an LRT. Finch West costs 3.7Billion as an LRT and would cost around 17.5 Billion as a Subway at the same per km as the Ontario line..

How did you come up with these numbers? Are you taking 30 years of operating costs & maintenance into consideration? Are you assuming the whole line would be buried? I don't think burying Line 6 was ever realistic.

3 options.

1. BRT for $30 million/km
2. LRT for $350 million/km
3. Elevated Light Metro for $700 million/km

Those are all very rough estimates, however none of the above options would have been anywhere near as expensive as your estimate. Maybe if they buried the whole line, but again why would anyone build a metro line like that on Finch?

I'll let others decide what they think was the best value for their tax dollars.

 

[duty free]

Aside from Signal priority how could the TTC do better for St Clair?

The speeds now are LOWER than with mixed traffic

27 stops for 7 km. Start by cutting 50% of the stops.

 

[Bojaxs]

I don't think there is a single pro-subway poster on UrbanToronto that has advocated for a subway along Finch.

I think most would rather have extended the Sheppard line westward beyond Sheppard West Station and build a BRT along Finch.