[lastcommodore]

I still don't know why subway was not a good idea. I used AI to get the numbers, so I am not saying they are 100% accurate, but they are hopefully in the ballpark.

Circa 2014, the FWLRT was estimated to cost $2.5B, or $1.1B for construction alone - so $100M/km. Inflate to 2018 the contract was for about $110M/km (for the construction portion). Everyone knew at the time that the temptation to add Stops would be huge with an on-street LRT, especially a low floor one. So complaining about that at this point is ignoring something we have known for over a decade.

Circa 2005, the Canada Line construction started for a 20km line at a cost of $2B. That's 100M/km. Inflate to 2018 is $150M/km. And this is for a 50% elevated, 50% underground "subway". Assume more elevation than was done in Vancouver and you get to $130M/km.

So the options at the time were;
1) Minor bus improvements for $5M/km, or.
2) 90% on-street LRT for $110M/km, or
3) 90% elevated "subway" for $130M/km.

At the time, and now, I still vote for #1, then #3, and #2 last.
But if the City said their 2 top priorities at the time were transit on Sheppard East and Finch West, and they said major improvement MUST occur in these areas even before we can even start thinking about other corridors, e.g. the DRL (Ontario Line corridor), then I think it's reasonable to say that "subway" would have been the best option to move people and meet the political goals of the day.

The problem is that we end up comparing (project A costs, toronto, 2019) versus (project B, not toronto, some other time) and so inevitably we kind of miss the elephant in the room that we are completely incapable of building at cost.

"110M/km for tram or 130M/km for elevated subway" makes literally zero sense. That shouldnt be possible, how in the world can elevated only be a price diff of 20M/km? It only is because we're actually comparing (tram, toronto, 2019) vs. (elevated, vancouver, 2005) and so any Toronto recent price is saddled with cost overruns.

I guarantee you if Toronto built 6FW as an elevated a la Canada line, a (elevated, Toronto, 2019), it'd end at 1bn/km and somehow still 1/2 the advertised speed. Likewise if (tram, Vancouver, 2005) happened itd probably be like 30M/km and 2x the speed of 6FW right now.

A point ive been trying to not so subtly make on some of this tram v. brt v. subway v. elevated debate. Costs between these solutions are frankly less important than the added cost of incompetence here. 6FW could have been an elevated metro for a bit more *if we could build competently. It also could be what it is now for a lot, lot less.

 

[Photon54]

Finch West LRT using electric switch heaters Ottawa LRT inquiry warned against | Globalnews.ca

Since launching at the beginning of winter, the Finch West LRT has been beset by delays and service disruptions tied to the switch technology embedded in the new transit line.

globalnews.ca

"The Toronto system, like Ottawa before it, is using electric heaters to melt ice and snow stuck in its switching systems. The technology proved so problematic in Ottawa it had to be replaced."

Seems learnings from Ottawa not applied.

 

[hw621]

Finch West LRT using electric switch heaters Ottawa LRT inquiry warned against | Globalnews.ca

Since launching at the beginning of winter, the Finch West LRT has been beset by delays and service disruptions tied to the switch technology embedded in the new transit line.

globalnews.ca

"The Toronto system, like Ottawa before it, is using electric heaters to melt ice and snow stuck in its switching systems. The technology proved so problematic in Ottawa it had to be replaced."

Seems learnings from Ottawa not applied.

Who is surprised? Lol

 

[Steve X]

Time to yank them all out. What a joke

 

[hw621]

Time to yank them all out. What a joke

Cry all we want. Nothing is going to happen to them...

 

[hw621]

Someone on Youtube claimed this. Is this true? If it is, is that the end of the subway vs. LRT argument?

 

[robmausser]

Someone on Youtube claimed this. Is this true? If it is, is that the end of the subway vs. LRT argument?

View attachment 708476

The metro area of Barcelona is 6 million in an area smaller than downtown Toronto. This is the issue with throwing around population, its not apples and oranges. Whats important is population density.

Also there are a ton of informations online about how Subway costs are a lot cheaper in Europe and Asia than North America.

Furthermore, many of the Barcelona lines were built in the 1920s-1970s, back when it was cheap af to build subways. They had a huge head start on Toronto.

There isn't the density on Finch Ave to justify a subway, elevated or underground, considering the current costs of metro construction and there never will be.

 

[lrt's friend]

Toronto would have been better off to put BRT in the LRT corridor. It would be a whole lot faster without all the automated and non-automated constraints imposed on trains. Heaven forbid if a bus driver went a little over the speed limit. to maintain schedule and no 25 kph speed limit at intersections.

Is one of the reasons for the failure to open Line 5 the embarrassing slow speed during testing?

 

[hw621]

Toronto would have been better off to put BRT in the LRT corridor. It would be a whole lot faster without all the automated and non-automated constraints imposed on trains. Heaven forbid if a bus driver went a little over the speed limit. to maintain schedule and no 25 kph speed limit at intersections.

Is one of the reasons for the failure to open Line 5 the embarrassing slow speed during testing?

Remember seeing some testing videos posted here showing pretty decent speed during testing. But it will be a different story once TTC starts operating it...

 

[urbanclient]

Finch West LRT using electric switch heaters Ottawa LRT inquiry warned against | Globalnews.ca

Since launching at the beginning of winter, the Finch West LRT has been beset by delays and service disruptions tied to the switch technology embedded in the new transit line.

globalnews.ca

"The Toronto system, like Ottawa before it, is using electric heaters to melt ice and snow stuck in its switching systems. The technology proved so problematic in Ottawa it had to be replaced."

Seems learnings from Ottawa not applied.

The inquiry was released in late 2022, more than 3 years ago. What exactly was the point of the inquiry if exactly 0 lessons were learned in effect? Heating railroad switches is not some novel technology that was invented by Metrolinx. Why do these clowns keep re-inventing the wheel? People keep bringing up Occam and Hanlon, but at this point, the track record is overwhelmingly negative. I refuse to believe people are so stupid, so consistently, for so long.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-inquiry-final-report-ottawa-problems-recommendations-1.6668152

You cannot convince me there wasn't some shady dealing here. There is no way you pay triple the capital cost of Paris T9 even with two gaudy stations taking 40% of the $2.5 billion capital budget. Take out the two stations and that's still double the €480 million price for a worse end product. Half the carbon footprint of the project came from the massive amount of concrete wasted on two terminus stations. 20 to 30 kilotonnes of CO2 equivalent. They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

Two quote and [annotate] @lastcommodore 's post, and credit to them for sending me this Twitter post originally:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830618910389129325

"Beyond the longer post I made focused purely on the shelters of 6FW vs. ION, when compared to Paris' T9, which is nearly identical length, stop wise, and median-running tramway,
- CBTC is used on 6FW. T9 and ION both use far simpler signalling systems [CBTC is for semi-automated and fully automated metros, NOT manually operated trams]
- 6FW having massively overbuilt and excavated terminal stations- T9 has on-ground transfers
- 6FW MSF is actually 71% larger than T9s (6.5 Ha vs 3.8 Ha by my sat image) [despite Line 6 having a smaller fleet, 18 vs. 22]
- 6FW has multiple next-destination signs at some stops? I'm not even sure why on a 50m platform [Paris has 1 next-destination sign per stop]
- Massively overbuilt yet less effective shelters (see post linked above) [Paris at least has wider, more comfortable platforms that feel safer]
- Overbuilt catenary systems- both in general and the solid rail around the Humber turn [see Twitter post]
- Underground turns compared to T9's at-grade turns (and IONs. Interestingly, from my sat estimates the 6FW takes the Humber turn at 40m radius and 10kmh, while the T9 handles 30m radius turns at 15kmh.)

Frankly, it amazes me with how overbuilt the project is, they still are having issues with things like the switches. I suspect there was some poor design/construction wrt some of the heating systems for the switches. I don't want to believe someone just forgot that winter exists here in Toronto."

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The inquiry was released in late 2022, more than 3 years ago. What exactly was the point of the inquiry if exactly 0 lessons were learned in effect? Heating railroad switches is not some novel technology that was invented by Metrolinx. Why do these clowns keep re-inventing the wheel? People keep bringing up Occam and Hanlon, but at this point, the track record is overwhelmingly negative. I refuse to believe people are so stupid, so consistently, for so long.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-inquiry-final-report-ottawa-problems-recommendations-1.6668152

You cannot convince me there wasn't some shady dealing here. There is no way you pay triple the capital cost of Paris T9 even with two gaudy stations taking 40% of the $2.5 billion capital budget. Take out the two stations and that's still double the €480 million price for a worse end product. Half the carbon footprint of the project came from the massive amount of concrete wasted on two terminus stations. 20 to 30 kilotonnes of CO2 equivalent. They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

View attachment 708501

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830618910389129325

THIS is the point. We ought to be able to replicate Paris trams at similar cost and speed. If we were doing THAT LRT would makes sense on many corridors in the GTA. Whatever the hell is going on on Finch doesn't make ANY kind of sense... is ONLY excusable as a learning experience, but can't possibly BE that when we have everyone loudly demonstrating that they won't even look to our own domestic experiences, or do the most basic value engineering. The centenary thing is particularly revolting... streetcar standards are well established and would have made dramatically more sense but somehow *gestures at Finch*.

 

[urbanclient]

THIS is the point. We ought to be able to replicate Paris trams at similar cost and speed. If we were doing THAT LRT would makes sense on many corridors in the GTA. Whatever the hell is going on on Finch doesn't make ANY kind of sense... is ONLY excusable as a learning experience, but can't possibly BE that when we have everyone loudly demonstrating that they won't even look to our own domestic experiences, or do the most basic value engineering. The centenary thing is particularly revolting... streetcar standards are well established and would have made dramatically more sense but somehow *gestures at Finch*.

The more mind bogglingly part is not the overbuilt catenary IMO. there is at least some reasoning behind that decision. Toronto gets the rare freezing rain that is more common than in Paris. The more mind bogglingly part is the CBTC signalling. Line 6 is the only surface-only street running tram in the world that has CBTC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control#List

The massive MSF yard despite having a smaller fleet than Paris also makes no sense.

 

[duffo]

They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

View attachment 708501

Thank you for this informed and detailed engineering document. Next time I hope Metrolinx uses Paint for future as-built construction drawings.

 

[turbanplanner]

I don't think we should be using the Canada Line as an example considering it was intentionally underbuilt so it could open in time for the 2010 Olympics and overcrowding has been a persistent problem on the line ever since. Its cost per km looks nice on paper but it hides the reality that it delivered sub-par transit to that part of Vancouver and Vancouver sooner or later is going to have to invest a lot of money to fix this mistake and make the stations larger. You and I both know that if we went with option 3 there is no way it would be built elevated because at the time these decisions were being made "elevated" was a dirty word and every subway needed to be underground. Unfortunatly a certain mayor at the time convinced sububan residents that they deserved subways and anything less was treating them like second class citizens. In fact there are still people peddling that nonsense to this day when talking about the above ground sections of the EC (including the western extension), and the at grade and elevated sections of the OL. The anti-elevated narrative at City Hall didn't change until Doug was elected and the OL elevated as a cost-cutting measure (which was the right choice of course). Also this city doesn't need another 5 stop stubway that goes nowhere. We nearly made that mistake in the 90's on Eglinton, and its the reason the Sheppard Line has never lived up to its potential; and Finch West is a corridor with even less ridership potential then both Sheppard and Eglinton.

As someone who lived in Scarborough nobody outside that area seems to remember a GIANT STRETCH of that part of the city was "blocked" from going north or south past Eglinton!

To go north past eglinton you'd have to go several KM's to just u-turn and back track. It added hours a week to my commute, and the fact several turns don't exist anymore, and other streets get backed up due to turning cars. (Ex, trying to turn from Eglinton to warden)

For years, giant stretches of the road were absolutely destroyed! Warden has been a lumpy mess for years and the city will do nothing about it because the expect MX to pay!

Street View of Eglinton Ave E & Warden Ave. · Google Maps

Scarborough, ON M1L 2M5, Canada

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[TwoWheelPoli]

The inquiry was released in late 2022, more than 3 years ago. What exactly was the point of the inquiry if exactly 0 lessons were learned in effect? Heating railroad switches is not some novel technology that was invented by Metrolinx. Why do these clowns keep re-inventing the wheel? People keep bringing up Occam and Hanlon, but at this point, the track record is overwhelmingly negative. I refuse to believe people are so stupid, so consistently, for so long.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-inquiry-final-report-ottawa-problems-recommendations-1.6668152

You cannot convince me there wasn't some shady dealing here. There is no way you pay triple the capital cost of Paris T9 even with two gaudy stations taking 40% of the $2.5 billion capital budget. Take out the two stations and that's still double the €480 million price for a worse end product. Half the carbon footprint of the project came from the massive amount of concrete wasted on two terminus stations. 20 to 30 kilotonnes of CO2 equivalent. They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

View attachment 708501
Two quote and [annotate] @lastcommodore 's post, and credit to them for sending me this Twitter post originally:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830618910389129325

"Beyond the longer post I made focused purely on the shelters of 6FW vs. ION, when compared to Paris' T9, which is nearly identical length, stop wise, and median-running tramway,
- CBTC is used on 6FW. T9 and ION both use far simpler signalling systems [CBTC is for semi-automated and fully automated metros, NOT manually operated trams]
- 6FW having massively overbuilt and excavated terminal stations- T9 has on-ground transfers
- 6FW MSF is actually 71% larger than T9s (6.5 Ha vs 3.8 Ha by my sat image) [despite Line 6 having a smaller fleet, 18 vs. 22]
- 6FW has multiple next-destination signs at some stops? I'm not even sure why on a 50m platform [Paris has 1 next-destination sign per stop]
- Massively overbuilt yet less effective shelters (see post linked above) [Paris at least has wider, more comfortable platforms that feel safer]
- Overbuilt catenary systems- both in general and the solid rail around the Humber turn [see Twitter post]
- Underground turns compared to T9's at-grade turns (and IONs. Interestingly, from my sat estimates the 6FW takes the Humber turn at 40m radius and 10kmh, while the T9 handles 30m radius turns at 15kmh.)

Frankly, it amazes me with how overbuilt the project is, they still are having issues with things like the switches. I suspect there was some poor design/construction wrt some of the heating systems for the switches. I don't want to believe someone just forgot that winter exists here in Toronto."

Wonder whether those electric switch heaters were also used for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT? This is bonkers!