[robmausser]

What really drives this is the underlying attitude that the outer boroughs don’t “count” as real Toronto. The city centre gets treated as the city, while everywhere else is managed cheaply. When it’s the centre, subways are justified, disruption is acceptable, and costs are worth it. When it’s the outer areas, suddenly LRTs, compromises, and “good enough” solutions are pushed instead.

Lol dumbest take ever. There just isn't the density or population outside the downtown to justify a subway its that simple. And there never will be in 100 years.

 

[Thaboss]

What I don't understand is, ignoring TSP, why is it so much slower than the bus. The bus has to wait at all the lights too. You'd expect it to be a bit slower all things being equal because unlike a bus a train stops at every stop

Even the whole wheel bearing fear. Ottawa runs the same trains much faster through far more curves they aren't being this excessively cautious

Ottawa is fully grade separated for one. If anything ottawa moves too slow for how well its been grade separated lol

Finch west lights turn red earlier than the adjacent streetlights, including when transit is given a left turn light.

Finch trains stops are right after lights and dwell times at those stations are very long.

The trains are being run at extremely slow speeds to avoid aggressive acceleration and breaking.

Watch videos of finch leaving finch west station. Nowhere on earth would a bus move that slowly.


Its a basic math problem really. An extra min here and there and next thing you know its been 20 extra min.

 

[robmausser]

What I don't understand is, ignoring TSP, why is it so much slower than the bus. The bus has to wait at all the lights too. You'd expect it to be a bit slower all things being equal because unlike a bus a train stops at every stop

Smartest person in the room here.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. All this attention on TSP, and its great, because TSP is needed on this line, like 6, and the streetcars 509, 510, 512.

But, I cant wait for the shocked pikachu faces when the line 6 LRT is still slow after full TSP is implemented.

And as this very intelligent person just pointed out, its staring right in our faces this whole time.

THE BUSES ARE FASTER THAN THE LRT WITHOUT TSP. That means TSP is not the issue.

The issue is that the LRV's are being driven too slowly. TSP will not fix this problem.

Its like giving your grandma all green lights at all the intersections. Shes still driving 35kmh, you aint getting anywhere fast.

The LRTs need to be driven faster. Thats it.

 

[Thaboss]

The LRTs need to be driven faster

They're looking into both TSP and speeds of the train.

Voices that matter have been demanding improvements in both...

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Smartest person in the room here.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. All this attention on TSP, and its great, because TSP is needed on this line, like 6, and the streetcars 509, 510, 512.

But, I cant wait for the shocked pikachu faces when the line 6 LRT is still slow after full TSP is implemented.

And as this very intelligent person just pointed out, its staring right in our faces this whole time.

THE BUSES ARE FASTER THAN THE LRT WITHOUT TSP. That means TSP is not the issue.

The issue is that the LRV's are being driven too slowly. TSP will not fix this problem.

Its like giving your grandma all green lights at all the intersections. Shes still driving 35kmh, you aint getting anywhere fast.

The LRTs need to be driven faster. Thats it.

TSP is still an issue even if it is not the only issue.

But yeah if light rail vehicles cannot reach the desired speeds on this line, then we should just send the vehicles to the Hurontario line and use the corridor for buses. The bus drivers will floor it between stations and maybe we would get the desired speeds of rapid transit on Finch.

 

[Admiral Beez]

They're looking into both TSP and speeds of the train.

It's so stupid that this wasn't part of the roll out. Two rules should have been in place from day one.

1. No LRT will ever be stopped (or even slowed) at an intersection by an automobile traffic signal. When the LRT is approaching, the light cycles to green. Of course there are exceptions for emergencies. And I appreciate this is easier for far side stops (which every stop should be).
2. No LRT will be delayed by left turning traffic or pedestrian crossings. Left turning vehicles and pedestrians will have to wait until the LRT has passed, or no left turns allowed whatsoever.

That's it you dummies at city hall, TTC and Metrolinx. Do this and those Finch cars can zoom at 50-60 kph.

 

[Voltz]

I'm curious to know what the TSP on Finch is capable of if fully turned on, would it just slightly extend green times or can it detect a LRV far enough away to give it a green light 95% of the time?

 

[urbanclient]

Lol dumbest take ever. There just isn't the density or population outside the downtown to justify a subway its that simple. And there never will be in 100 years.

You're jumping to conclusions afaik. Very few, if any, are advocating for a 10+ km subway on Finch West. We're incredulous at the wasted money for next to 0 ROI in terms of social benefit per $ spent. The 36 buses are jam packed while few ride the LRT. The waste from the overbuiltness of the line: the cavernously deep descent from the new Finch West LRT entrance etc... The money blown here could've been saved up for higher ROI projects like more subways closer to downtown. Finch West doesn't have the ridership to warrant an LRT in Toronto's austerity context, despite dozens of people regurgitating the same talking points they heard from the internet. There are other, more deserving corridors that should've gotten transit improvements before a single dime was spent on Finch West a full 20 km away from Downtown as the crow flies. Not to mention the tons of CO2 emissions that went into building this white elephant that will likely never be recouped for hundreds of years, even if the 36 were replaced entirely.

Fall 2023 bus corridor weekday ridership:
1. — 39 Finch East + 939 Finch Express, 46,000
2. — 29 Dufferin + 929 Dufferin Express, 42,100
3. — 52 Lawrence West + 952 Lawrence West Express, 40,000
4. — 35 Jane + 935 Jane Express, 38,800
5. — 25 Don Mills + 925 Don Mills Express, 38,000
6. — 96 Wilson + 996 Wilson Express, 36,000
7. — 54 Lawrence East + 954 Lawrence East Express, 35,600
8. — 36 Finch West, 35,500

Notice anything here? Basically all the other bus corridors have higher population densities.

 

[Undead]

Scarborough and North Etobicoke, for example, have long been given scraps when it comes to public transport, areas that also happen to be some of the most diverse in the city.

Line 2 is being extended in Scarborough, Etobicoke is getting the underground portion of the Eglinton line which will be essentially a subway (plus the Eg West extension) and Sheppard is now being planned for extension east and west as well. The diversity bit is completely irrelevant.

I couldn't tell you where they would be built considering the sprawling nature of the region makes it very hard to justify any kind of higher-order transit in most areas.

The Jane bus/corridor is the lead candidate for LRT conversion, followed by the other busiest bus routes (Wilson, Lawrence West, etc).

 

[wmedia]

For future LRT lines, one of my colleagues suggested it would be cheaper and faster to buy every user of the line one of these exoskeletons, and have them all run instead!

 

[Obsidian]

The videos of these LRTs crawling along at turtle speeds are honestly embarrassing. I’ve been saying for the past couple of years that the problems with Lines 5 and 6 wouldn’t magically disappear once they opened. I already had the bar set low, but this is somehow worse than expected. A week in and we’re already seeing a full line shutdown? Come on.

And yet people are still insisting LRTs are perfectly fine for a city the size of Toronto. These lines are constrained by intersections, lack signal priority, and operate at street level in a way that’s unforgiving when anything goes wrong.

What really drives this is the underlying attitude that the outer boroughs don’t “count” as real Toronto. The city centre gets treated as the city, while everywhere else is managed cheaply. When it’s the centre, subways are justified, disruption is acceptable, and costs are worth it. When it’s the outer areas, suddenly LRTs, compromises, and “good enough” solutions are pushed instead.

Scarborough and North Etobicoke, for example, have long been given scraps when it comes to public transport, areas that also happen to be some of the most diverse in the city. Finch West and Scarborough LRT are classic examples, cheaper, surface solutions designed without full consideration for long-term capacity or reliability. Even Line 3, when it was operational, was a stopgap from day one.

This isn’t about individual prejudice; it’s about systemic biases in how the city prioritises infrastructure investment. Political influence, cost considerations, and historic planning choices have all favoured the centre and left outer, diverse boroughs with substandard options. Until the city recognises that every area deserves transit built to proper standards, this kind of fiasco is going to keep happening.

Said it before and I’m saying it again….I don’t want another LRT ever built in Toronto again. If you MUST….stick it underground or above ground.

Also, I love how they did everything to say “this isn’t a streetcar” yet have stops on Line 6 that mimic TTC streetcar stops and follow the speed limit for cars. Absolutely hilarious.

I’m glad the outrage forced the city into growing the F up…..keep the pressure on them….maybe they’ll realise this isn’t 1972 Toronto anymore.

The entire point of transit city was to bring higher order of transit to the burbs all at once.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Beta test out transit signal priority on existing streetcar right-of-ways, like The Queensway.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The reason for using light rail on Line 6 is because of the "failure" of magnetically attracted induction rail using on the former Line 3 Scarborough Rapid Transit.

 

[Rainforest]

LRTs work reasonably well in a number of other cities, thus it was worth building some in Toronto.

However, any future LRT expansion will only happen if the first two lines can be fixed. In particular, if Finch West gets fixed.

If Finch West remains slow, then we can forget about almost any other new LRT corridor. Maybe, Waterfront East LRT still makes sense, as well as the extensions of both Eglinton and Finch to the airport (eliminating the transfers). Other than those, nothing will get going.

 

[urbanclient]

LRTs work reasonably well in a number of other cities, thus it was worth building some in Toronto.

This right here is a logical fallacy. Just because something worked well in some other cities, doesn't mean it was the optimal choice for Toronto. You’ve got to compare the population distribution, density and land-use patterns, not to mention account for future growth.

If you build for small city demand in a big city corridor, you’re just paying billions to create a future bottleneck. Ironically, in Finch West's case, it probably didn't deserve an LRT before Finch East, Lawrence, etc. got transit improvements.

You should build an LRT only if you never expect that corridor to need a subway. If a corridor could conceivably support a subway in the future, an undercapacity LRT will eventually lead to untenable congestion. So instead of supporting long-term intensification, the corridor stalls out and growth shifts elsewhere *cough* Eglinton.