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Rainforest said:
LRTs work reasonably well in a number of other cities, thus it was worth building some in Toronto.

However, any future LRT expansion will only happen if the first two lines can be fixed. In particular, if Finch West gets fixed.

If Finch West remains slow, then we can forget about almost any other new LRT corridor. Maybe, Waterfront East LRT still makes sense, as well as the extensions of both Eglinton and Finch to the airport (eliminating the transfers). Other than those, nothing will get going.
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Finch and Eglinton are not the first LRT in Toronto. We've had Harbourfront and Spadina LRT decades ago, eventually demoted to mere streetcars.

To propose a new LRT project in Toronto, it is not enough to note that it works in some other cities. The proposal should demonstrate an understanding of the reasons why LRT projects in Toronto (most recently Lines 5 and 6) ran into trouble, and to explain what the proposed project will do differently to deal with those reasons.
 
ThenWhat said:
Finch and Eglinton are not the first LRT in Toronto. We've had Harbourfront and Spadina LRT decades ago, eventually demoted to mere streetcars.

To propose a new LRT project in Toronto, it is not enough to note that it works in some other cities. The proposal should demonstrate an understanding of the reasons why LRT projects in Toronto (most recently Lines 5 and 6) ran into trouble, and to explain what the proposed project will do differently to deal with those reasons.
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The "first" light rail in Toronto was along The Queensway. It could have been an extension to the "Queen Subway", that was to use streetcars, before the powers-that-be switched to Bloor & Danforth for the second subway.

In 1957, to accommodate construction of the Gardiner Expressway, the streetcar tracks were removed from Lake Shore Boulevard between Roncesvalles Avenue and the Humber River, and the bridge crossing the rail corridor was demolished. As a replacement, a new private right-of-way was built along the Queensway from the Sunnyside Loop to the Humber Loop.
 
The Line 6 platform at Finch West Station looks like it is enclosed, but the temperature is virtually the same as outside. Obviously Humber College Station's platform is fully exposed, but are there any things that can be done to make the temperature more comfortable without being a complete waste of energy? I don't really have any experience with indoor but not temperature controlled stations in the system or abroad, so I could be missing something obvious.
 
Leo_Chan said:
The Line 6 platform at Finch West Station looks like it is enclosed, but the temperature is virtually the same as outside. Obviously Humber College Station's platform is fully exposed, but are there any things that can be done to make the temperature more comfortable without being a complete waste of energy? I don't really have any experience with indoor but not temperature controlled stations in the system or abroad, so I could be missing something obvious.
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Platform screen doors...

Or

Only open transit doors where the button is pressed.. so you can wait in the warmer train
 
Thaboss said:
Platform screen doors...

Or

Only open transit doors where the button is pressed.. so you can wait in the warmer train
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Platform screen doors would make the platforms of the station considered indoor so the climate is separated and temperature manageable.
 
Thaboss said:
Ottawa is fully grade separated for one. If anything ottawa moves too slow for how well its been grade separated lol

Finch west lights turn red earlier than the adjacent streetlights, including when transit is given a left turn light.

Finch trains stops are right after lights and dwell times at those stations are very long.

The trains are being run at extremely slow speeds to avoid aggressive acceleration and breaking.

Watch videos of finch leaving finch west station. Nowhere on earth would a bus move that slowly.


Its a basic math problem really. An extra min here and there and next thing you know its been 20 extra min.
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Far side atops actually make sense, when you combine them with TSP, the train glides through a green light and then waits on the far side. But this seems to be a left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing situation.
 
urbanclient said:
This right here is a logical fallacy. Just because something worked well in some other cities, doesn't mean it was the optimal choice for Toronto. You’ve got to compare the population distribution, density and land-use patterns, not to mention account for future growth.

If you build for small city demand in a big city corridor, you’re just paying billions to create a future bottleneck. Ironically, in Finch West's case, it probably didn't deserve an LRT before Finch East, Lawrence, etc. got transit improvements.

You should build an LRT only if you never expect that corridor to need a subway. If a corridor could conceivably support a subway in the future, an undercapacity LRT will eventually lead to untenable congestion. So instead of supporting long-term intensification, the corridor stalls out and growth shifts elsewhere *cough* Eglinton.
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Very large cities like Paris and Istanbul do LRT quite well actually. An LRT should work fine on this corridor, even at grade. It's somehow been implemented spectacularly badly. It's like they looked at a static image of other cities LRTs and said nice looking stops (they actually are nicer than a lot of other cities) , nice right of way, etc and built it. But never looked at how those other systems actually operated
 
Leo_Chan said:
The Line 6 platform at Finch West Station looks like it is enclosed, but the temperature is virtually the same as outside. Obviously Humber College Station's platform is fully exposed, but are there any things that can be done to make the temperature more comfortable without being a complete waste of energy? I don't really have any experience with indoor but not temperature controlled stations in the system or abroad, so I could be missing something obvious.
Click to expand...
The portal is right at the end of the platform at Finch West station. One can literally see light from the outside. It should be comfortable during summer as it is below surface, but in winter it is as enclosed as a bus shelter without doors (in terms of temperature).
 
11th said:
The portal is right at the end of the platform at Finch West station. One can literally see light from the outside. It should be comfortable during summer as it is below surface, but in winter it is as enclosed as a bus shelter without doors (in terms of temperature).
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Are there any heaters on the platform? In Ottawa the Line 1 platforms are open, but the Transecure area (aka DWA) always has heaters and a (somewhat ineffective) wind screen
 
Kyle Campbell said:
Are there any heaters on the platform? In Ottawa the Line 1 platforms are open, but the Transecure area (aka DWA) always has heaters and a (somewhat ineffective) wind screen
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I didn't see any when I was there, and from the looks of pictures, no.
 
Kyle Campbell said:
Very large cities like Paris and Istanbul do LRT quite well actually. An LRT should work fine on this corridor, even at grade. It's somehow been implemented spectacularly badly. It's like they looked at a static image of other cities LRTs and said nice looking stops (they actually are nicer than a lot of other cities) , nice right of way, etc and built it. But never looked at how those other systems actually operated
Click to expand...
Look at the ridership numbers in 2023 or 2024 and tell me that Finch West deserved a full-blown LRT before these other corridors got any transit improvements. Finch West was chosen because it was the only road already wide enough for an LRT among the top corridors pre-covid. But it was always less densely populated than half a dozen other corridors. Its pre-covid high ridership was more of a function of it feeding into Humber College, than latent transit demand of the surrounding low-density communities.

I'm glad you brought up Paris and Istanbul; both of those cities only have trams running in denser corridors than Finch West. It's mind boggling y'all are ignoring the fact that LRTs are usually built in denser, more walkable corridors. A near exact analog of Line 6 is T9 in Paris*, which has a ridership up to 100,000 per day. I can't see Line 6 hitting even 50,000 per day given the decline in international students. I'm not anti-LRT in general, I'm anti-spend-money-on-Finch-west when downtown adjacent Dufferin was sufferin' until recently. The city and province have tight budgets, they need to prioritize higher social ROI projects instead of vanity projects in the suburbs.

*both 10.3 km long, 18 and 19 stops respectively, both have terminus subway connection; but T9 is 5 km from the centre of Paris, whereas Line 6 is 20 km from downtown Toronto.
Make this make sense:
Fall 2023 bus corridor weekday ridership:
1. — 39 Finch East + 939 Finch Express, 46,000
2. — 29 Dufferin + 929 Dufferin Express, 42,100
3. — 52 Lawrence West + 952 Lawrence West Express, 40,000
4. — 35 Jane + 935 Jane Express, 38,800
5. — 25 Don Mills + 925 Don Mills Express, 38,000
6. — 96 Wilson + 996 Wilson Express, 36,000
7. — 54 Lawrence East + 954 Lawrence East Express, 35,600
8. — 36 Finch West, 35,500

The argument that Finch West is a short route so the buses are the most packed doesn't hold water either (I've circled Finch West). https://stevemunro.ca/2024/02/15/overcrowding-on-ttc-bus-routes/
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urbanclient said:
Look at the ridership numbers in 2023 or 2024 and tell me that Finch West deserved a full-blown LRT before these other corridors got any transit improvements. Finch West was chosen because it was the only road already wide enough for an LRT among the top corridors pre-covid. But it was always less densely populated than half a dozen other corridors. Its pre-covid high ridership was more of a function of it feeding into Humber College, than latent transit demand of the surrounding low-density communities.

I'm glad you brought up Paris and Istanbul; both of those cities only have trams running in denser corridors than Finch West. It's mind boggling y'all are ignoring the fact that LRTs are usually built in denser, more walkable corridors. A near exact analog of Line 6 is T9 in Paris*, which has a ridership up to 100,000 per day. I can't see Line 6 hitting even 50,000 per day given the decline in international students. I'm not anti-LRT in general, I'm anti-spend-money-on-Finch-west when downtown adjacent Dufferin was sufferin' until recently. The city and province have tight budgets, they need to prioritize higher social ROI projects instead of vanity projects in the suburbs.

*both 10.3 km long, 18 and 19 stops respectively, both have terminus subway connection; but T9 is 5 km from the centre of Paris, whereas Line 6 is 20 km from downtown Toronto.
Make this make sense:
Fall 2023 bus corridor weekday ridership:
1. — 39 Finch East + 939 Finch Express, 46,000
2. — 29 Dufferin + 929 Dufferin Express, 42,100
3. — 52 Lawrence West + 952 Lawrence West Express, 40,000
4. — 35 Jane + 935 Jane Express, 38,800
5. — 25 Don Mills + 925 Don Mills Express, 38,000
6. — 96 Wilson + 996 Wilson Express, 36,000
7. — 54 Lawrence East + 954 Lawrence East Express, 35,600
8. — 36 Finch West, 35,500

The argument that Finch West is a short route so the buses are the most packed doesn't hold water either (I've circled Finch West). https://stevemunro.ca/2024/02/15/overcrowding-on-ttc-bus-routes/
View attachment 703676
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Therein lies the problem though, as you stated Finch West was converted to LRT because it was the easiest of the routes to fix, all the other ones have some kind of issue holding them back. Finch East is to narrow and there it doesn't appear there is enough space to expand the road until you get to Scarborough, Dufferin is to narrow so either we would need to build a line underground which is expensive or convince the TTC to re-embrace mixed traffic streetcars, Lawrence West is to narrow and space for expansion is effectively non-existent for its entirety, Jane becomes to narrow south of the 400 (this was a known problem during the Transit City era), Don Mills can be solved by a northern extension of the Ontario Line, Wilson is also to narrow with little to no expansion room, and lastly while Lawrence East is wide it doesn't have a natural western terminus so an LRT there would have to be a branch of the Crosstown, or it would have to be a BRT that goes to Don Mills Avenue.

Basically all of these corridors have higher ridership but fixing the issues is much harder short of just slapping some red paint down on the road and calling it a day. It's a good temporary solution but eventually you run out of buses to throw at the problem and more permanent infrastructure will be required.
 
JSF-1 said:
Therein lies the problem though, as you stated Finch West was converted to LRT because it was the easiest of the routes to fix, all the other ones have some kind of issue holding them back. Finch East is to narrow and there it doesn't appear there is enough space to expand the road until you get to Scarborough, Dufferin is to narrow so either we would need to build a line underground which is expensive or convince the TTC to re-embrace mixed traffic streetcars, Lawrence West is to narrow and space for expansion is effectively non-existent for its entirety, Jane becomes to narrow south of the 400 (this was a known problem during the Transit City era), Don Mills can be solved by a northern extension of the Ontario Line, Wilson is also to narrow with little to no expansion room, and lastly while Lawrence East is wide it doesn't have a natural western terminus so an LRT there would have to be a branch of the Crosstown, or it would have to be a BRT that goes to Don Mills Avenue.

Basically all of these corridors have higher ridership but fixing the issues is much harder short of just slapping some red paint down on the road and calling it a day. It's a good temporary solution but eventually you run out of buses to throw at the problem and more permanent infrastructure will be required.
Click to expand...
There is no excuse for Finch West to start early works in 2016, 9 years before Dufferin got a small bus lane segment. A logical timeline would be to optimize the other corridors, within a reasonable budget...well before spending even a dime on Finch West. I am genuinely hard pressed to find a similar tram built in such a low-density, low latent transit demand area as Line 6, anywhere in the world. Finch West should've gotten an LRT after the other corridors got bus lanes, and after another downtown subway was built, to say the least. Not the other way around.

Line 6 was cheaper to build on Finch West than on a closer-to-downtown corridor, but that also resulted in the proportional ROI being lower. And as of now, ROI is basically 0 since more people ride the 36 buses than Line 6. There is a strong pro-LRT bias on these threads to the point of irrationality. In what world would it make more sense to build Line 6 before the Ontario Line, before improving higher density routes with high latent demand. Almost no one is saying Finch West should never get an LRT ever—the timing is what’s really in doubt. Building it earlier, before the density warrants it and/or before improving denser routes is a poor use of taxpayer dollars.

"The city and province have tight budgets, they need to prioritize [higher ROI projects] instead of vanity projects in the suburbs."
 
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