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Admittedly that doesnt make a ton of sense, the Fastest parts of the ION are where it has its own ROW through Waterloo, the section on King st is definitely slower

The TTC brought their own "experience" while GRT actually went through the effort to learn best operating practices and apply them
The King St section of the ION is slower, but compared to what I experienced with Line 6, they're still driving the trains in downtown Kitchener faster than the TTC drives Line 6 in comparable areas. I was watching the speedometer in the empty drivers cab when I took Line 6 this weekend and we were taking pretty much every bend in the tracks at like 7-10km/h. The ION takes turns at 15km/h only dropping to 10km/h at the worst 90 degree turns on the system. So even on comparable sections of track the TTC wants Line 6 to be slower than the ION.
 
The ION also does the signal priority right. Why is the ION doing everything right but the TTC isn't, when the TTC has been operating a much bigger network and supposed to be more experienced?
Because Waterloo/Grand River Transit has a wealth of competence coming out of UWaterloo that probably help locally before they jump ship to Silicon Valley; whereas Toronto gets complacent backward-looking people and cronies who can play politics. If Line 6 opened pre-internet pre-mass media, it might never have gotten potential speed improvements.

To illustrate my point about complacency:
We had a highly respected contributor unironically cite two of the most shambolically delayed megaprojects in the world in Berlin Brandenburg airport and Stuttgart 21—both from the same country that let its rail system rot—as one of the reasons GO Expansion going to sh** is not unprecedented and therefore not that big of a deal. Why are we looking at things and places worse than us, when instead we should be looking at role models.

EDIT* P.S. In my short time on this forum, I get the feeling that even the best-faith industry insiders are or at least occasionally under the influence of the complacent and risk-averse transit organizational culture of the Greater Toronto Area. Not to mention, fiscally over-conservative in a penny wise, pound foolish way.*
 
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That's an average speed of 25.91 km/h, in line with the best practices of Finch-style suburban lines in Prague, and that's with the bizarre speed restrictions around the last few stations at the south end (including the inexplicable slow zone right past Fairway) Imagine that number if they sorted out... whatever tf is going on in Kitcehener, you'd start to get pretty close to the average speeds of Lines 1 (29.2) and 2 (30.0)!
This is why I keep pointing to the ION when it comes to Finch West because, even with all the weird design choices made with the ION and its bottlenecks, it's pumping out an average speed equal to trams in Europe and nearly as good as a subway. Not to mention absolutely blowing Line 6 out of the water. The Region of Waterloo shows, even if you have some weird design choices and compromises, you can still build LRT like a subway. So how did the City of Toronto and TTC manage to take an even simpler, straight line LRT that's half the length of the ION and run it slower? Because nothing about the Finch West track design says to me that they need to be driving the trains that slow. Ottawa absolutely hammers the Citadis Spirt with their line and yeah that broke the trains, but the TTC isn't remotely near Ottawa's operating speed and Waterloo has similar tracks but is driving the Flexity Freedom faster.

Had the Region decided to send the ION straight down King St in Downtown Kitchener, and got rid of some turns, they could easily hit Line 1/2 operational speeds. And luckily, based on how the system is designed, the Region could do this at any point in the future if they wanted to, but they're more focused on Stage 2 right now which should come in the next 10 years.

Edit: oh also I think that weird slow zone is just because the line terminates at Fairway. It's for when they sometimes have to switch the train to the other track before it gets to the station. Once Stage 2 is done the line won't terminate there anymore so I'm sure the slow zone will be removed/reduced.
 
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Because Waterloo/Grand River Transit has a wealth of competence coming out of UWaterloo that probably help locally before they jump ship to Silicon Valley; whereas Toronto gets complacent backward-looking people and cronies who can play politics. If Line 6 opened pre-internet pre-mass media, it might never have gotten speed improvements.

To illustrate my point about complacency:
We had a highly respected contributor unironically cite two of the most shambolically delayed megaprojects in the world in Berlin Brandenburg airport and Stuttgart 21—both from the same country that let its rail system rot—as one of the reasons GO Expansion going to sh** is not unprecedented and therefore not that big of a deal. Why are we looking at things and places worse than us, when instead we should be looking at role models.
There is no guarantee we get speed improvement now...
 
So to avoid an Ottawa style disaster, they chose a worse PR disaster? At least people were happy and hopeful when the Confed line opened, the disappointment came later
As someone who lived through the "Ottawa style disaster", the idea that this stuff about the speed of Finch is a "worse PR disaster" is complete nonsense.

If you think that the reaction to the Confederation Line involved people being "happy and hopeful", man. You truly don't know.
 
from Chow’s reddit:

IMG_8427.jpeg
 
As someone who lived through the "Ottawa style disaster", the idea that this stuff about the speed of Finch is a "worse PR disaster" is complete nonsense.

If you think that the reaction to the Confederation Line involved people being "happy and hopeful", man. You truly don't know.

I meant on opening day. Hence the "disappointment came later" thing. Here they started with the disappointment at hour 1.

With Ottawa the problems built over time, and people got more and more disillusioned with the line to the point they lost all hope, and even though it's "reliable" now the hope is gone

As a person that commutes on OTrain line 1 and 2 a few times a week, I'm well aware of what's happening with it
 
The King St section of the ION is slower, but compared to what I experienced with Line 6, they're still driving the trains in downtown Kitchener faster than the TTC drives Line 6 in comparable areas. I was watching the speedometer in the empty drivers cab when I took Line 6 this weekend and we were taking pretty much every bend in the tracks at like 7-10km/h. The ION takes turns at 15km/h only dropping to 10km/h at the worst 90 degree turns on the system. So even on comparable sections of track the TTC wants Line 6 to be slower than the ION.
When I rode the ION last year it was crawling at the two turns on Hayward and Courtland. Like it was moving so slow I thought we were rolling to a stop.

I hope at some point in the future they can straighten out that stretch of tracks and get rid of those two tight turns.
 
If the schedule were reduced by 10 minutes per direction (20 min round trip), here are what the headways would be with the existing number of vehicles in service at different times of day:
Screenshot 2025-12-09 at 16.26.51.png


18 minutes saved round trip seems more likely since it produces a clockface 10-minute headway in the evenings/weekends. The 2 extra minutes each way could be added to the terminal time to improve reliability. Currently the schedule calls for 3 minutes at each end which is incredibly short for a 46-minute trip.
Screenshot 2025-12-09 at 16.45.13.png
 
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When I rode the ION last year it was crawling at the two turns on Hayward and Courtland. Like it was moving so slow I thought we were rolling to a stop.

I hope at some point in the future they can straighten out that stretch of tracks and get rid of those two tight turns.
Yeah I was quite critical of the ION when it first opened because of these slow turns. At the time I didn't understand why they went with that design since, for a little bit more money they could have eliminated the bottleneck. What I came to learn is that the Region of Waterloo was operating on a shoe-string budget when they built ION because unlike Toronto, Ottawa, Hamilton, and Peel who had their LRTs paid for in full by daddy Provincial and/or Federal government, the Region of Waterloo only got 2/3rds of the funding from upper government and had to fund the rest themselves. With only 500,000-ish residents between the tri-cities (rural townships didn't pay for ION) there wasn't the kind of tax base available to do everything perfectly, so some compromises were required. A lot of the strange turns on ION were put in to reduce land acquisition costs. The Region of Waterloo wanted to use their own rights-of-way as much as possible, which wasn't too difficult as they own most of the rail spur lines which intersect the city (Iron Horse Trail ROW), but they had to use roads in some areas to link the rights-of-way together. Honestly, for a total construction cost of less than $1 billion, for the area served and the speeds provided, the ION is probably the best value-for-money transit project in the country.

With Stage 2 they're going to be more liberal with the construction costs, so there will be fewer of these bottlenecks. Not to mention based on the way ION is designed, if they ever wanted to re-route things to get rid of turns, it would be easy to do so.
 
If there is a use for AI, maybe it is to mediate the minutiae between signal timing, boarding/alighting time and travel speed to produce a minimum of overall trip time.
I agree. One of the biggest issues with the TSP system on the streetcar network is that we have a very simplistic way of estimating travel time that is usually wrong, since it would be logistically impractical to separately calibrate a formula for each direction at each intersection at each time of day. But we have boatloads of data we can use to train a machine learning model to predict travel times at each intersection based on data sources such as the time of day, the traffic signal state, time since previous streetcar and of course the observed travel times of previous streetcars.
 
Yeah I was quite critical of the ION when it first opened because of these slow turns. At the time I didn't understand why they went with that design since, for a little bit more money they could have eliminated the bottleneck. What I came to learn is that the Region of Waterloo was operating on a shoe-string budget when they built ION because unlike Toronto, Ottawa, Hamilton, and Peel who had their LRTs paid for in full by daddy Provincial and/or Federal government, the Region of Waterloo only got 2/3rds of the funding from upper government and had to fund the rest themselves. With only 500,000-ish residents between the tri-cities (rural townships didn't pay for ION) there wasn't the kind of tax base available to do everything perfectly, so some compromises were required. A lot of the strange turns on ION were put in to reduce land acquisition costs. The Region of Waterloo wanted to use their own rights-of-way as much as possible, which wasn't too difficult as they own most of the rail spur lines which intersect the city (Iron Horse Trail ROW), but they had to use roads in some areas to link the rights-of-way together. Honestly, for a total construction cost of less than $1 billion, for the area served and the speeds provided, the ION is probably the best value-for-money transit project in the country.

With Stage 2 they're going to be more liberal with the construction costs, so there will be fewer of these bottlenecks. Not to mention based on the way ION is designed, if they ever wanted to re-route things to get rid of turns, it would be easy to do so.
For an region and municipality taking their first swing at a rail transit project really ever, the way it turned out is miraculous.

Not trying to derail the thread, but does anyone have a link to a thread discussing Phase 2 of ION? Very curious about the choice to bank so far around Preston.
 

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