[canucks2030]

We do have a lot of non locals coming here to say we need subways subways subways but not realize that it’s not helpful for these neighborhoods.

For those hopping on for a few stops, this will be great. For those looking for a straight connect from Humber polytechnic to Finch West. The C-Train like service would be great. However the locals looking to take it a few blocks would have to take the bus instead.

C-Train stations were built cheaply in railway corridors, highway mediums or other fast flowing roads space approximately 2km apart. Access is near impossible without a car or taking a local infrequent route. So while the ride is great, you need to open a car to get anywhere fast. Plus those huge GO station like parking lots are insane. Totally not suitable for Toronto.

They say that because Toronto, Canada’s largest city, has not open a new subway line in almost a quarter century. And the first new line to open not grade separated, no signal priority, very slow and look more like a tramway than light right. Worst it’s being included in the map like a subway and this is false advertising. It’s clear if the city didn’t wanted to make the changes to make the line faster they should have not build this line (BRT would have been more appropriated).

 

[APTA-2048]

(BRT would have been more appropriated).

I got to disagree. As someone who spent four years commuting with the 36. I was getting on crush loaded articulated buses coming every few minutes at rush hour. I’m not sure how many more buses you could run.

And the 36 has high turnover. A lot of the people weren’t riding it from end to end. Many get on and get off after a few blocks. Sure others like me rode it from end to end, but the bus route was very busy with people constantly getting on and off.

 

[Bojaxs]

I got to disagree. As someone who spent four years commuting with the 36. I was getting on crush loaded articulated buses coming every few minutes at rush hour. I’m not sure how many more buses you could run.

And the 36 has high turnover. A lot of the people weren’t riding it from end to end. Many get on and get off after a few blocks. Sure others like me rode it from end to end, but the bus route was very busy with people constantly getting on and off.

Yes, but how many of those articulated buses were at crush capacity because the 36 buses were delayed by traffic?

Subway keeps dropping people off at Finch West while the 36 bus still has yet to show up.

 

[mikey7767]

A compelling argument to never do anything about anything that has historically been terrible.

I also said that it would make more sense to actually get the TTC to fix what we already have to prove that they are capable of making LRTs/trams that are faster and reliable before building a new LRT line, so that we are not stuck with the same white elephant when we build a new one with no guarantee that anything will change along with a $3.5 Billion price tag.

Until you run out of capacity on that BRT. What then? There is a wide spectrum of ridership between what a bus can carry and when it starts to make sense to have a subway, and an LRT can be scaled up in a way that BRT cannot.

BRTs with more buses can meet a similar capacity, and especially bi-articulated buses can meet a similar capacity. I'll give you the capacity point as it comes easier with LRTs, but I still don't think that it is worth the price point.

Then an LRT can be built on a bridge. If we are spending $3.5 Billion, I think it would be fine to spend a bit more to make it grade separated. That said, I'll still acknowledge that capacity is a strong point for LRTs, but it's not worth half the cost of a subway when you have BRTs as an option, can optimize for those BRTs, and when you have not optimized for the existing routes (Spadina and St. Clair) to show that you won't make a new LRT a white elephant.

It may not be enough to change the operating procedures for the legacy streetcar fleet, but bad PR for a brand new transit project may be enough to push them to make changes

I hope you are right but I doubt it will happen, and I prefer not building new lines on maybe there will be an improvement in the future, because otherwise, it is a very expensive gamble.

Yes, when people discredit a legitimate form of transportation just because our own application of it is poor, I have a problem with it.

I disagree. If our implementation is crap, then I don't think it's worth building in our city.

Then you should have clarified that, no? How can you get mad at me for taking your argument at face value?

Yes. But it was a mistake. What you jumped to "nobody takes you seriously" or something like that, which is just not true based on my interactions with folks privately and with the feedback on my posts.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to have a grievance with me, bully for you.

I'm not interested in being nasty, but you started it when you said "nobody takes you seriously" or something of that nature, and with your sarcasm later on. You wanna be passive aggressive/sarcastic, I'll bite back.

So your argument will lead to advocating for a subway eventually, just not as fast.

Yes exactly. I would max out the BRT capacity and optimize for those BRTs. And if we are close enough for subway capacity, then that's exactly what I would do if the capacity level warrants it. And if that subway is built, it will take absorb commuters from so many other surface routes as well, especially surrounding routes at a much higher level than an LRT ever will, reducing demand on other routes at a much higher rate, and getting cars off the road, and improving travel times throughout the city and making transit attractive. Until then, I'm happy with a bus way or a RapidTO solution.

People have been predicting this outcome for years, without evidence.

I disagree. We had evidence with 510 and 512. They are in the same spectrum of service and were even branded as LRTs at one point. And we knew the city did not implement TSP for this, making it very similar to 510/512.

 

[APTA-2048]

Yes, but how many of those articulated buses were at crush capacity because the 36 buses were delayed by traffic?

Subway keeps dropping people off at Finch West while the 36 bus still has yet to show up.

I had to wait for the next bus sometimes, which came a few minutes later and also eventually filled up. Sure traffic makes things worse, but there were just a lot of people riding the bus. Not just from the subway end.

 

[afransen]

It is a monumental achievement. Something can be a monumental achievement and unsatisfactory in important ways.

GO Expansion (with DB's vision) would have been a monumental achievement. Opening a mostly surface suburban LRT line is kind of the the bare minimum for a city the size of Toronto.

 

[McGillicuddy]

GO Expansion (with DB's vision) would have been a monumental achievement. Opening a mostly surface suburban LRT line is kind of the the bare minimum for a city the size of Toronto.

This is the first all-new piece of higher-order transit this city has opened in more than 20 years. If you don't consider it a big deal, then, to me, that feels like you're condemning the city for failing to live up to your aspirations rather than your expectations.

 

[canucks2030]

I got to disagree. As someone who spent four years commuting with the 36. I was getting on crush loaded articulated buses coming every few minutes at rush hour. I’m not sure how many more buses you could run.

And the 36 has high turnover. A lot of the people weren’t riding it from end to end. Many get on and get off after a few blocks. Sure others like me rode it from end to end, but the bus route was very busy with people constantly getting on and off.

Not saying BRT the solution but if they didn’t wanted to give priority and didn’t wanted to increase the speed then yes it should have been a BRT. The whole line, currently, seems to have been build more for BRT than light rail and this is disappointing. It’s not normal it’s approximately 50 minutes for only 10KM. My point is if we are investing billions to a project we need to make sure the project have the tools to succeed. Currently it’s a fail. Hope this will change.

 

[afransen]

We do have a lot of non locals coming here to say we need subways subways subways but not realize that it’s not helpful for these neighborhoods.

For those hopping on for a few stops, this will be great. For those looking for a straight connect from Humber polytechnic to Finch West. The C-Train like service would be great. However the locals looking to take it a few blocks would have to take the bus instead.

C-Train stations were built cheaply in railway corridors, highway mediums or other fast flowing roads space approximately 2km apart. Access is near impossible without a car or taking a local infrequent route. So while the ride is great, you need to open a car to get anywhere fast. Plus those huge GO station like parking lots are insane. Totally not suitable for Toronto.

Using the bus to travel a few stops is generally fairly acceptable. The problem is when there is so much travel demand on the alignment that even with high frequency, buses are crowded with people traveling longer distances. Higher order transit has more expensive stations so they need to be fewer and far between, and it reduces the crowding on buses making more local stops.

 

[a2z]

The route maps within the Waterloo trains include the bus connections for each station, iirc.
I think that would be a nice-to-have for this line - esp. as some of the station names aren't the most straightforward (e.g. Emery, Mount Olive)

 

[Steve X]

LOL non-locals? Subways are what Toronto needs because this city moves the ridership of an entire region on a single corridor. They aren’t a luxury and they aren’t some ‘downtown elite’ toy. They’re basic infrastructure in a city like Toronto. So enough of this ‘out-of-towners don’t understand’ spin. That warped mentality….treating the outer boroughs as an afterthought while pretending only the core matters….is how Rob Ford got elected in the first place, and why Doug Ford is running the province now. When you keep giving the boroughs scraps, you feed the resentment that puts Ford-style politics in power.

Toronto is one city, not some downtown bubble with satellite towns attached. Build subways where the people actually live, move, and work, and stop pretending Calgary’s model can be cut-and-pasted onto a city that outgrows it every single morning rush hour.

Do you live on Finch and see how many people get on and off? They aren’t going downtown or across the city for their groceries are they? Something like the Scarborough subway would just help the elites get around while the locals are stuck on buses. I think you’re selfish for what you want to see.

Yes this line can be faster if they optimize a few things but 2km station spacing isn’t the answer for streets like Finch West or Jane.

They could build a subway like LRT on the hydro corridor instead for you and those who just wants to zoom by.

 

[T3G]

LOL non-locals? Subways are what Toronto needs because this city moves the ridership of an entire region on a single corridor. They aren’t a luxury and they aren’t some ‘downtown elite’ toy. They’re basic infrastructure in a city like Toronto. So enough of this ‘out-of-towners don’t understand’ spin. That warped mentality….treating the outer boroughs as an afterthought while pretending only the core matters….is how Rob Ford got elected in the first place, and why Doug Ford is running the province now. When you keep giving the boroughs scraps, you feed the resentment that puts Ford-style politics in power.

Toronto is one city, not some downtown bubble with satellite towns attached. Build subways where the people actually live, move, and work, and stop pretending Calgary’s model can be cut-and-pasted onto a city that outgrows it every single morning rush hour.

So, what, we should give the outer boroughs the most expensive, overbuilt toys possible just because they throw large enough temper tantrums?

In the old days, we did this crazy thing called planning transit around ridership and density. Now it's thoughts and feelings. If I lived along the 33 Forest Hill bus, and I got enough people to sign a petition saying that they felt like third class citizens, does that mean we should replace the 33 with a subway?

You know who should feel like a third class citizen? The people who live in the suburbs outside of Toronto, who have such comically poor transit that it makes even the 6 look like high class transit. When the Milton line, which takes an hour end to end and pre-COVID was the busiest GO train line outside of the Lakeshore corridor, isn't running, my commute can take anywhere from 1 hr 20 minutes on a good day, to 2 hours on a bad day. No one seems interested in helping us, any time a proposal is brought forth to do anything about the situation everyone always wrings their hands and says that the money is better spent elsewhere, and I'm supposed to support building subways to places where the density and ridership don't remotely justify them, all so that they don't have to feel like they're being slighted by the downtown elites? Give me a break. LRT is exactly correct for the built form of Finch West, all it needs is operational improvements.

 

[Steve X]

I just feel like the amount of comments made like you’re moving to a new house but I’ll come and decide that your dinner table should be replaced. How do you feel?

We can all agree they need to fix this slowness. Hopefully they will connect it to Woodbine GO sooner than later and have a fast connection downtown.

 

[robmausser]

The fix is quite easy - no idling at stops for 2-3 mins for no reason and true signal priority meaning that. The train should never stop at a red light - that should be the goal but this is Toronto, so not holding my breath.

Theres a third fix: running the trains as fast as Metrolinx did when they tested the line. As soon as the TTC got the keys the trains have been running significantly slower.

 

[Steve X]

Theres a third fix: running the trains as fast as Metrolinx did when they tested the line. As soon as the TTC got the keys the trains have been running significantly slower.

I feel like TTC imposed their own streetcar rules which slowed it down further.