[T3G]

Imagine if Transit City had gone through. Then we would have had a NeTwOrk of this crap.

You're right, chief, discrediting an entire type of transport is way smarter than adjusting our operations to match those that countless cities across the globe engage in every single day...

All it would take is a flick of a pen to transform the 6 from a slow white elephant into a speedy form of rapid transit. The fact that we can't do that doesn't mean that the smart thing was to cancel Transit City.

 

[Obsidian]

Took 3 vehicles on the line, the first 2 were the slowest transit vehicle i have ever been on. This includes busses and streetcar. What made it worst was that the stations were on the far side of the intersection. So we would slow down getting to every red light. Then crawl through the intersection to stop at the station. If the line had full TSP this setup would make sense. But without it it made everything slower. Also the trains would be stopped at the station 3x to 5x longer than they needed to like they were intentionally stopping longer to slow down the train.

The 3rd train I was on (towards finch wesr) was surprisingly zippy and we seem to be going twice as fast. But still slower than I had hopped far (max speed was 40km/hour)

 

[ARG1]

You're right, chief, discrediting an entire type of transport is way smarter than adjusting our operations to match those that countless cities across the globe engage in every single day...

All it would take is a flick of a pen to transform the 6 from a slow white elephant into a speedy form of rapid transit. The fact that we can't do that doesn't mean that the smart thing was to cancel Transit City.

And here comes the copium train.

Fact of the matter is the speeds that were being sold were optimistic to begin with. Marco Chitti made an article going over this a few days ago and points out that trams similar in style to Finch West struggle to hit the 20km/h average speed and typically fall around 17-18km/h. Sure that's an improvement over Finch West's 13, but these aren't the type of speeds to build a network around.

Here's the relevant quote. Note that "Type A" means tram train similar to Calgary, Dallas, and Ottawa, meanwhile Type B means tramway similar to Finch West. https://marcochitti.substack.com/p/build-trams-but-build-them-well

There is growing evidence of an “optimism bias” regarding the attainable performance of tramways or other transit services operating in “type B” right-of-way, pushed by an ill-informed idea diffused in political and planning circles that type B right-of-way and signal priority (a poorly understood problem by laypeople) can yield performances equivalent to a vehicle running in type A right-of-way. In other words, you can have metro performances, but on a budget. Similar to what Bent Flyvbjerg describes for ridership estimates or early cost estimates, there is a tendency in early planning for “strategically misrepresenting” (more or less intentionally) the level of speed performances tramways can achieve.

In the business case, the LRT options for Finch are estimated to reach an average speed of 22 km/h (page 8), well above the currently scheduled 13.5 km/h. In the early 1990s, the expected average speed for Bologna’s planned “metrotranvia” was set at 20-25 km/h, as was common for that kind of project at the time. The current system under construction is expected to average 17.8 km/h (PFTE and Final Design), or as low as 14.5 km/h in more recent documents (Progetto Esecutivo) that incorporate additional speed restrictions required by the fixed-guideway transit regulatory body, ANSFISA. The same happened in Bordeaux, where the initial estimates indicated 21 km/h, while the actual running speed is closer to 18 km/h, and as low as 12 km/h in the city center, with many trips showing no substantial improvement over the pre-existing bus service. In Helsinki, there has long been a target speed of around 25 km/h for LRT in planning documents. However, the realities of the urban environment and the multiple compromises required to achieve other goals, such as safety, urban integration, and coexistence with other modes, have resulted in reduced operational speeds in many recent tramway projects. Only the orbital Jokeri LRT, with its many type A segments, comes close.

Like no, European cities aren't significantly better at this.

 

[lowtrain]

I rode the LRT from Humber college to Finch West station and it took 50 minutes. On the way there we were passed by a 36 bus. The ride back from Finch West Station to Humber College was faster at 35 minutes, but we were also passed by a 36 bus.

I think it is very clear that the LRT needs to be given priority because on average we were stuck behind red lights for about 1-2 minutes each light. If the LRT was given priority it could have been a lot faster. I'm hopeful for the line, it's a big improvement. With some smart changes I think it can be efficient.

I understand that getting signal priority will speed this streetcar up but doesn't your example showcase that buses are faster than streetcars given the same signal priority (since buses get stopped at red lights too)? Shouldn't the streetcar still be faster?

 

[McGillicuddy]

I'm starting to believe that, when certain people stub their toes, they throw their fist to the sky and wince out the words "DAVID MILLER!"

 

[T3G]

And here comes the copium train.

Fact of the matter is the speeds that were being sold were optimistic to begin with. Marco Chitti made an article going over this a few days ago and points out that trams similar in style to Finch West struggle to hit the 20km/h average speed and typically fall around 17-18km/h. Sure that's an improvement over Finch West's 13, but these aren't the type of speeds to build a network around.

Here's the relevant quote. Note that "Type A" means tram train similar to Calgary, Dallas, and Ottawa, meanwhile Type B means tramway similar to Finch West. https://marcochitti.substack.com/p/build-trams-but-build-them-well

Like no, European cities aren't significantly better at this.

It's not copium, it's lived experience.

I haven't been to any of the named cities, but in a city like Prague or Bratislava, their trams running in Finch style rights of way are speedy and are competitive to the subway (in cities that have one) for short and medium distance journeys.

 

[Obsidian]

Wow, Line 6 in operation looks pathetic. I doubt they'll speed it up without sustained public outcry.

Yes I am hoping this will lead to Transit priority on all LRT and Streetcar lines

 

[6ixGod]

Surface stops are not as significant as actual stations. Line 5 did have surface stop articles but they were deleted.

So then why aren't the Ion or Edmonton or Calgary LRT stops deleted?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It's not copium, it's lived experience.

I haven't been to any of the named cities, but in a city like Prague or Bratislava, their trams running in Finch style rights of way are speedy and are competitive to the subway (in cities that have one) for short and medium distance journeys.

As someone who was just in Europe a few days ago and rode trams around, I can confirm this is the case and traveling Finch today offers quite the juxtaposition.

It’s not about the train vehicle, the same issues afflicts buses too, we just accepted that the bus transit experience should be slow and suck too for whatever reason, and now it looks absurd after we spent billions on an LRT line. It is about the operational design. European cities do not prioritize the car over transit vehicles.

 

[ARG1]

It's not copium, it's lived experience.

I haven't been to any of the named cities, but in a city like Prague or Bratislava, their trams running in Finch style rights of way are speedy and are competitive to the subway (in cities that have one) for short and medium distance journeys.

I checked a few stop pairings in Prague (and I focused on the straight ones). Again it seems to hover around 17-19km/h. Better than Finch West, but its far from amazing. I haven't seen anything that reaches the promised 22km/h speeds on Finch West.

 

[mikey7767]

You're right, chief, discrediting an entire type of transport is way smarter than adjusting our operations to match those that countless cities across the globe engage in every single day...

All it would take is a flick of a pen to transform the 6 from a slow white elephant into a speedy form of rapid transit. The fact that we can't do that doesn't mean that the smart thing was to cancel Transit City.

As I responded to you earlier today, just because something can be done in a hypothetical sense doesn't mean it ever will be done. Has anything been done about 510 and 512? No. We've had shitty speeds for years and years. And you expect something different this time? You think that all of a sudden that this time something might be better? That's like a woman dating a guy thinking "I can change him, with me, it will change". Just because it is possible in theory doesn't mean it will ever happen.

Not to mention, you could have similar outcomes with a bus on it's own right of way without the $3.5 Billion pricetag, and you could build a lot more bus rapid transit for the cost of this white elephant. But it looks like you don't want to acknowledge reality, and just be bitter when you see an argument you don't like by trying to discredit me like you did some posts ago or just be sarcastic while ignoring my previous points. It would make a lot more sense to actually make changes to 510 and 512 and speed them up to prove that the TTC will not just make new surface lines a white elephant before building new surface lines like this, rather than just building more of the same and hoping that something will change in the future, so that we know that money isn't being thrown into a hole like this time.

 

[suspenderpianoman]

I timed my trips.

Finch West to Humber College: 56 minutes
Humber College to Finch West: 54 minutes

Was pretty consistent. My friend who was a frequent taker of the Finch Bus said it was typically 45 minutes. The Finch Bus drivers used to zip down the road outside peak rush hour, which is not seeming like the behaviour of these trains.

Seconding this with my own stopwatch times of of 53:46 WB and 51:30 EB end-to-end.

FWIW, the WB trip was held for a few minutes while a new train came out of the yard, and the EB was held while there was a "technical issue ahead" so I would guess without these the running time of ~46 minutes from the published timetable is supposed to be the norm, but still disappointing.


On the other hand, as someone who used to live in Ottawa and was around for the O-Train opening, I was quite happy the stations today didn't smell like Rideau and Parliament stations did....

 

[6ixGod]

As predicted months ago, the problems were never going to magically disappear once Line 6 or Line 5 opened. You can build the nicest LRT in the world, but if you don’t give it proper Transit Signal Priority, you have kneecapped the entire line on day one. And that is exactly what people are complaining about now.

Here in York, VIVA does the same nonsense: the bus sits through a red, inches into the intersection, and then stops again at the BRT station. That is not “rapid” transit, that is just a bus in a fancy jacket. And look, I will be generous and play along with the whole “Line 6 should be an LRT” framing, but let us be honest, a city the size and density of Toronto has no business relying on surface-running LRTs to do the heavy lifting of public transport. This is a 6 to 8 million metropolitan area with gridlock baked into every arterial road. An LRT forced to interact with traffic signals, turning vehicles, pedestrian cycles, construction, emergency vehicles, and weather is simply the wrong tool for the job.

Toronto needs heavy-rail, grade-separated subway infrastructure. No intersections, no surface-level conflicts, no signal delays, no bottlenecks from traffic, and consistent headways that are not at the mercy of whatever chaos is happening above. The Ontario Line is exactly what we needed.

Put bluntly, you cannot serve a global city with infrastructure designed for mid-sized cities. LRT only works when it is fully separated or given absolute priority, and Toronto refuses to commit to either. So we end up with expensive, politically “safe” half-measures that give all the cost of rail with the performance of a local bus.

Until Toronto stops treating rapid transit like a compromise project and actually builds heavy rail where it is needed, we are going to keep repeating this exact same failure cycle.

 

[ARG1]

As predicted months ago, the problems were never going to magically disappear once Line 6 or Line 5 opened. You can build the nicest LRT in the world, but if you don’t give it proper Transit Signal Priority, you have kneecapped the entire line on day one. And that is exactly what people are complaining about now.

Here in York, VIVA does the same nonsense: the bus sits through a red, inches into the intersection, and then stops again at the BRT station. That is not “rapid” transit, that is just a bus in a fancy jacket. And look, I will be generous and play along with the whole “Line 6 should be an LRT” framing, but let us be honest, a city the size and density of Toronto has no business relying on surface-running LRTs to do the heavy lifting of public transport. This is a 6 to 8 million metropolitan area with gridlock baked into every arterial road. An LRT forced to interact with traffic signals, turning vehicles, pedestrian cycles, construction, emergency vehicles, and weather is simply the wrong tool for the job.

TSP is frankly not even the top of this line's concerns. The train simply shouldn't be crawling at 20km/h between stations (not at intersections), and it especially shouldn't be running at 10km/h in the curved tunnel under H27/Finch. The operations here are just beyond inexcusable for a finished product running revenue service.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

As predicted months ago, the problems were never going to magically disappear once Line 6 or Line 5 opened. You can build the nicest LRT in the world, but if you don’t give it proper Transit Signal Priority, you have kneecapped the entire line on day one. And that is exactly what people are complaining about now.

Here in York, VIVA does the same nonsense: the bus sits through a red, inches into the intersection, and then stops again at the BRT station. That is not “rapid” transit, that is just a bus in a fancy jacket. And look, I will be generous and play along with the whole “Line 6 should be an LRT” framing, but let us be honest, a city the size and density of Toronto has no business relying on surface-running LRTs to do the heavy lifting of public transport. This is a 6 to 8 million metropolitan area with gridlock baked into every arterial road. An LRT forced to interact with traffic signals, turning vehicles, pedestrian cycles, construction, emergency vehicles, and weather is simply the wrong tool for the job.

Toronto needs heavy-rail, grade-separated subway infrastructure. No intersections, no surface-level conflicts, no signal delays, no bottlenecks from traffic, and consistent headways that are not at the mercy of whatever chaos is happening above. The Ontario Line is exactly what we needed.

Put bluntly, you cannot serve a global city with infrastructure designed for mid-sized cities. LRT only works when it is fully separated or given absolute priority, and Toronto refuses to commit to either. So we end up with expensive, politically “safe” half-measures that give all the cost of rail with the performance of a local bus.

Until Toronto stops treating rapid transit like a compromise project and actually builds heavy rail where it is needed, we are going to keep repeating this exact same failure cycle.

Good LRT > Good BRT >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bad LRT > Bad BRT

Finch West is unfortunately in the bad LRT category. One of the lessons here unfortunately is that we could have accomplished this outcome without investing heavily in light rail vehicles and all of this infrastructure. Conversely, if given signal priority and "Good BRT" operational design, a BRT would be an adequate solution on most Transit City corridors (and all of our arterial roads for that matter) over an LRT.