[EnviroTO]

The speed limit on Finch West is 60km/h and the LRT has its own lane with low chance of encountering obstacles in the lane. I can understand that there are stops and opportunities to tune the lights, but why would a bus be able to do it faster safely when buses are along the curb where pedestrians can step out, in lanes where cars can cut in front, in traffic, and not getting any light prioritization? Hopefully this gets press.

 

[hw621]

It's not just a TTC thing, it's a North America thing. It's because we have a culture that a) prioritizes the illusion of safety above all else, and b) is so litigious that the only solution to anything is to restrict restrict restrict.

New York added a lot of timers on their subway in the 1990s that slowed trips down considerably, out of an abudance of caution after the Williamsburg Bridge accident.

MTA weighs ending intentional slowing of trains in effect since deadly 1995 crash

The MTA is studying a simple idea to reduce the plague of subway delays: Run the trains faster.

www.ny1.com

Metrolinx is also like this. The speed limit around Renforth station is 20 km/h, and they're so fanatical about it they demanded that the TTC ban all buses without geofencing abilities so that they could strictly follow that speed. And if anyone on here actually used the transitway, they'd know that the part of it that is owned by MiWay is no speed demon either, despite being entirely grade separated and exactly the sort of transit solution that the anti-LRT types love to hype up. And it's going to be real fun when the new MCIs for GO enter service, too, as Transport Canada rules since September 2020 prohibit standees on buses with seatbelts.

Anyone who is going after LRT as being the problem is barking up the wrong tree entirely. Look around you, the problem is the safety culture that we have created.

More of a legal liability culture than a "safety" culture...

 

[nfitz]

I don't know about that. That dreaded one they used to have near Sheppard West was the slowest I think I have ever moved on a subway or lrt anywhere I've been

It was long as well. If you look at the current list, the longest one on the entire system is only 200 metres. For the current southbound zone between Sheppard West to Wilson it's reduced from 46 km/hr to 20 km/hr; but it's only 186 metres long. And then the other one, from Yorkdale to Lawrence West, is only 183 metres long ... with the speed reduced from 48 km/hr to 45 km/hr.

I'm not sure why they even bother listing a 180-metre long speed restriction, that's imperceptible!

Other than the recently started restrictions around Union, TTC hopefully has finally dealt with this issue, finally. With the system size and age, there's always going to be minor stuff popping up here and there.

With the sole exception of the Yorkdale-Lawrence West slow zone, all of the reduced speed zones have a maximum speed between 15 and 25 km/h, which buses and European LRTs routinely go faster than.

That's true, T3G, but somewhat misleading. If you look at the two Finch to Vaughan restrictions, one is 25 km/hr - reduced 2 km/hr from the usual 27 km/hr (on the Union to St. Andrew curve). And the other (near Davisville) is a 25-km/hr limit, down from 32 km/hr ... that is only 152 metres long! I'm doubt most would even notice either!

The previous issues Line 1 issues were indeed mountains. But we are into molehill territory now.

As Steve posted, the 46min is just a placeholder at this stage.

The opening day schedule is just a placeholder?

That seems like a recipe for a PR disaster of epic proportions.

 

[APTA-2048]

I have to agree that this would make more sense and a more truthful representation of reality
View attachment 699720

https://twitter.com/x/status/1994833149596155975

I get that the idea is to get clicks, but I wish people would actually inform people of the reasons for why things are the way they are. It’s not just this issue, but you see it a lot with transit people on social media.

Like streetcars are a perfectly viable form of transportation in other cities, but people see Toronto’s problems and think they are to blame for congestion. Light rail is also a perfectly valid form of transportation, but again people see Toronto’s problems and think it could never work. People see the deteriorating subway infrastructure, and come to the conclusion that the TTC needs to receive even less money. Stuff like this. It’s annoying and is why my social media feeds are just pretty pictures of buses, buildings, and plants. I don’t have the following to influence people’s opinions. I just share my thoughts with friends and family. At least there’s no competition to “win” and argument.

I guess this turned into a little bit of a rant. Sorry.

 

[Dan416]

Let's see what the actual speed is first. I can't comprehend how an LRT in its own lane will be slower than a bus.

 

[JasonParis]

I think Rodney—who genuinely does a lot of great work—is being tongue-in-cheek here, using the “536” joke to draw attention to the headway issues before Line 6 even opens. It’s really a push for a better Line 6, not a demand for an actual new route.

I’m still waiting to see whether Olivia announces something as part of her re-election bid, and/or if the new TTC CEO steps forward with a real plan to fix the streetcar network—which would almost certainly bring some much-needed benefits to the LRT lines as well.

 

[ARG1]

Just putting this reminder here before we get people attempting to discredit the chosen mode of transport again based on sketchy agency-level operating procedures.

View attachment 699616

I think there's a difference between lines that have a ton of slowzones due to decades of decay and poor maintenance versus a BRAND NEW "Rapid" Transit Line.

And a demo of what we could also have if North American institutions didn't prize the illusion of safety over common sense:

What part of this video is meant to be impressive exactly? A tram that barely reaches 55km/h in a section of road with barely any intersections, and somewhat lengthy stop spacing? The section afterwards when it actually enters city streets it caps out at 45km/h and stays that way for the next couple of stops. 45km/h, ie the speed of a car driving through a residential neighbourhood. Like its faster than the streetcars we have here in Toronto, but its not exactly performance that would justify a "Line 6" branding even if it was in Toronto. Certainly not something that should be called "Rapid Transit".

 

[TwoWheelPoli]

This is pretty sad about these findings about the LRT being slower than the buses they replace. Based on the map, I would suggest removing the Driftwood and Stevenson stops to speed up service given they are too close to adjacent stations. Even with the removals, the spacing for Albion to Mount Olive and Tobermory to Jane and Finch would still be on par with other station spacings.

 

[Rody365]

I get that the idea is to get clicks, but I wish people would actually inform people of the reasons for why things are the way they are. It’s not just this issue, but you see it a lot with transit people on social media.

Like streetcars are a perfectly viable form of transportation in other cities, but people see Toronto’s problems and think they are to blame for congestion. Light rail is also a perfectly valid form of transportation, but again people see Toronto’s problems and think it could never work. People see the deteriorating subway infrastructure, and come to the conclusion that the TTC needs to receive even less money. Stuff like this. It’s annoying and is why my social media feeds are just pretty pictures of buses, buildings, and plants. I don’t have the following to influence people’s opinions. I just share my thoughts with friends and family. At least there’s no competition to “win” and argument.

I guess this turned into a little bit of a rant. Sorry.

Hey! I’m the one more made that original graphic, totally understand your frustrations on clickbait and such. I’m very involved in the transit advocacy field and often do explain to people why things are why are—lack of transit signal priority, speed restrictions, lack of funding, lack of route management and overall a city that prioritizes cars of transit. I never blame congestion on the streetcars and always argue against ripping them out. They’re a great asset to the city and we have to keep pushing for them to be better! I find this kinda post sparks the discussion to lead people to my other content to contact their councillors about TSP and such, but it also does bring in the haters and disgruntled drivers.

 

[T3G]

I think there's a difference between lines that have a ton of slowzones due to decades of decay and poor maintenance versus a BRAND NEW "Rapid" Transit Line.

Also not the point. The point is, shitty operational practices don't discredit an entire mode of transport.

A tram that barely reaches 55km/h in a section of road with barely any intersections

Yes, exactly that. If the Finch line achieved speeds anywhere near that level, it would be several levels more impressive than the projected average speeds now.

ike its faster than the streetcars we have here in Toronto, but its not exactly performance that would justify a "Line 6" branding even if it was in Toronto. Certainly not something that should be called "Rapid Transit".

Rapid transit is relative. The Yonge line between Bloor and Eglinton West is hardly excessively speedy at the best of times, either, but we don't discredit it just because trains aren't running 80 km/h along those sections. Rapid Transit should be consistent (which an LRT with a private ROW should be) and reliable, it's not about building a pseudo HSR project along every street in the city.

The goal of building rapid transit should not be to compete with the car, because outside of rush hour such a thing is physically impossible, so any attempt to do so will just result in shittier transit. So, yes, I think that any line which manages to consisently go above 50 km/h is deserving of appearing on a rapid transit map. And there is nothing stopping Finch West from being just that, other than our own stupidity.

 

[Adjei]

A brand new so called rapid transit line being slower than the bus it replaces. This transit line will be the butt of jokes. The memes and tik tok videos will be endless.

 

[Steve X]

A brand new so called rapid transit line being slower than the bus it replaces. This transit line will be the butt of jokes. The memes and tik tok videos will be endless.

The definition "rapid transit" is kinda vague. If you googled it, the AI summarizes it as

Rapid transit is a high-capacity public transportation system in an urban area that runs on an exclusive right-of-way, separate from other traffic. This allows it to operate faster and more reliably than conventional transit, and it can take the form of subways, elevated trains, or dedicated bus lanes, often called Bus Rapid Transit (BRT).

Key characteristics

• Exclusive right-of-way: Rapid transit systems are separated from general traffic, whether by being underground, elevated, or in dedicated lanes. This prevents them from getting stuck in congestion.
• High capacity: These systems are designed to move large numbers of people quickly and efficiently.
• High-frequency service: Many systems operate frequently, often without needing strict timetables.
• Urban focus: Rapid transit is designed for use in metropolitan areas.

Examples of rapid transit systems

• Subways: These are rail systems that run underground.
• Elevated trains: Rail lines that run above street level, sometimes called "el trains".
• Bus Rapid Transit (BRT): A system using buses on dedicated lanes with features like signal priority and off-board fare collection to increase speed and efficiency.
• Light Rail Transit (LRT): A rail-based system that often uses exclusive rights-of-way, but is not always fully grade-separated.

Line 6 meets all of these points as rapid transit never really states a minimum speed. It just needs to have their own lane/tracks and operate frequently all day. So GO trains don't qualifies as rapid transit.

In fact TTC used to display the 509, 510, 512 and 501 along Queensway as streetcar rapid transit lines.

So the “536” would definitely qualifies.

 

[McGillicuddy]

At the risk of sounding like I've got an Obama-era hangover, faster transit is generally better than slower transit, but transit doesn't have to be faster to be better.

For one thing, regardless of the speed at which it operates, the LRT should offer more predictable and consistent service than the bus route it is replacing, which counts for a great deal in an environment as hostile to pedestrians as Finch Avenue.

 

[smallspy]

At the risk of sounding like I've got an Obama-era hangover, faster transit is generally better than slower transit, but transit doesn't have to be faster to be better.

For one thing, regardless of the speed at which it operates, the LRT should offer more predictable and consistent service than the bus route it is replacing, which counts for a great deal in an environment as hostile to pedestrians as Finch Street.

In this same vein.....

I took the Eglinton bus from Kennedy to Mount Pleasant yesterday afternoon. We got passed by at least 2 LRVs on the surface section of the trip, which took me about 52 minutes end-to-end.

Are there times when the bus will be faster than the LRT? Yes, of course. There are times and places when buses are faster than the subway, too.

Is the LRT going to be faster than the bus at the time when the most people are going to be using the line? Also yes.

It's the latter point I think that we should all be keying on, not the former.

Dan

 

[APTA-2048]

Hey! I’m the one more made that original graphic, totally understand your frustrations on clickbait and such. I’m very involved in the transit advocacy field and often do explain to people why things are why are—lack of transit signal priority, speed restrictions, lack of funding, lack of route management and overall a city that prioritizes cars of transit. I never blame congestion on the streetcars and always argue against ripping them out. They’re a great asset to the city and we have to keep pushing for them to be better! I find this kinda post sparks the discussion to lead people to my other content to contact their councillors about TSP and such, but it also does bring in the haters and disgruntled drivers.

I’m glad to hear about your dedication and work you put in. I can also appreciateI how the how and why can get pushed aside just by the nature of social media and I guess a bit of human behaviour. Thanks for advocating for transit.