[Northern Light]

Future OL extensions to the north through much wealthier areas are very likely to be elevated as well.

A small bit at Don Mills might be described that way, maybe.........but most of a likely, elevated O/L will be beside what is now parkland or employment uses.

But yes, it is likely to be elevated until about the 401, at which point, it may go back underground to meet Line 4, but detailed design is a long way off....

The OL is also effectively elevated (albeit on a berm) through Leslieville - a wealthy area.

The berm was already there though........

****

Also, this was the wrong decision, as has been outlined on many occasions, its resulted in reducing GO service significantly for a period of not less than 4 years, and maybe longer, and has resulted in significant impacts to future capacity in the LSE corridor.

It was only an extra 800M to bury from East Habour out; or ~ 1.2B or so if the line had remained entirely underground, from Union to Thorncliffe.

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The obsession of some here with going elevated is really taxing. While it can make sense in right place, with the right project, it is often undesirable for a wide variety of reasons.

Yes, the way we've done subways is excessively costly, but that's not because they underground, its because we deep bore, instead of cut and cover, or even shallow bore. Its also the result of P3s which are
inherently more expensive.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Ahh, yes, $1.2 billion. I think I have that pocket change laying around in my couch somewhere..

"only" should never be put in front of a number that large in a sentence. $1.2 billion is $1.2 billion. That's about $400 for every man, woman, and child in the City of Toronto.

 

[Northern Light]

Ahh, yes, $1.2 billion. I think I have that pocket change laying around in my couch somewhere..

"only" should never be put in front of a number that large in a sentence. $1.2 billion is $1.2 billion. That's about $400 for every man, woman, and child in the City of Toronto.

On a project budget of of over 20B (and it will be higher at the end).........we're talking about a sum less than the contingency.

The cost of offsetting the capacity constraints in the corridor will be in the billions.

 

[innsertnamehere]

On a project budget of of over 20B (and it will be higher at the end).........we're talking about a sum less than the contingency.

The cost of offsetting the capacity constraints in the corridor will be in the billions.

$20b is lifetime operations costs included.. Capital is lower. And it doesn't change that $1.2 billion is $1.2 billion and can go a long way deployed elsewhere for other things. It is a lot of money, full stop.

"capacity constraints" are as if the OL doesn't already have capacities higher than basically any other metro line in north america in it's existing design and higher than the current bloor-danforth line.

 

[Northern Light]

$20b is lifetime operations costs included.. Capital is lower. And it doesn't change that $1.2 billion is $1.2 billion and can go a long way deployed elsewhere for other things. It is a lot of money, full stop.

No it is not. The public, all-in number for the O/L is 27.2B that includes operations costs (though not lifetime, LOL) .....

The capital number is currently in the mid-teens within that envelope. However, the 27B is likely to rise further.......... (I'm quite sure)

"capacity constraints" are as if the OL doesn't already have capacities higher than basically any other metro line in north america in it's existing design and higher than the current bloor-danforth line.

1) The constraints I was speaking of are to GO/VIA/HSR.

2) As someone who has read the modelling numbers for the O/L, I will repeat for the nth time, I don't believe them to be credible.

 

[TOtramz]

Is this project dead in the water unless metrolinx and the province takes over?
It seems like any city led LRT project like waterfront LRT or this seems to go absolutely no where.

 

[sixrings]

Is this project dead in the water unless metrolinx and the province takes over?
It seems like any city led LRT project like waterfront LRT or this seems to go absolutely no where.

Yup. Janes gone too. The city projects don’t go anywhere because the city doesn’t have the money. They are asking the province and the feds. The province and the feds then in bad times use election promises to pretend that construction is imminent. If it was imminent then why are you announcing it while you need a vote versus midway through a campaign. Then the liberals love the word “deferred spending”. That means they will get around to their promise after they pay for all their other promises. In other words we may not be in office to actually build this. The conservatives well they’re radio silent. Either way without Toronto actually paying and instead asking for money this is the back and fourth. It doesn’t help that Torontonians fight about every single plan which also turns things into more studies and election issues.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Is this project dead in the water unless metrolinx and the province takes over?
It seems like any city led LRT project like waterfront LRT or this seems to go absolutely no where.

Should be killed off entirely IMO. The city should focus on funding another high capacity east-west subway through downtown/midtown.

 

[nfitz]

Should be killed off entirely IMO. The city should focus on funding another high capacity east-west subway through downtown/midtown.

At about 6 to 10 times as much per kilometre.

And still not serving Scarborough.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

At about 6 to 10 times as much per kilometre.

And still not serving Scarborough.

Where are the worst traffic congestion issues in the city? Certainly not on trips within Scarborough.

True value engineering has not even been tried since Danforth went in.

We can have cheap subways if we dared to try. I’m talking elevator and a single staircase into stations that are cut and cover, single design spec for every single station box, bare-bones rolling stock cut down to 40m-60m trains Canada Line style.

 

[nfitz]

Where are the worst traffic congestion issues in the city? Certainly not on trips within Scarborough.

True value engineering has not even been tried since Danforth went in.

We can have cheap subways if we dared to try. I’m talking elevator and a single staircase into stations that are cut and cover, single design spec for every single station box, bare-bones rolling stock cut down to 40m-60m trains Canada Line style.

Single staircase wouldn't be legal. Even the Danforth stations have two staircases per platform - and many have had to add a second entrance for fire considerations.

You might be able to save a bit here and there, but if you can value engineer the subway, you can value engineer the LRT as well (perhaps even more so - don't rebuild the effing road at the same time).

And 40-metre trains, shorter than some streetcars, aren't going to cut it for a downtown subway in Toronto. Isn't the Ontario Line 80 metres, protected for 100 metres in the future?

The Scarborough lines were planned because they were so much cheaper than subway, and increase in congestion is estimated to grow more than downtown.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Single staircase wouldn't be legal. Even the Danforth stations have two staircases per platform - and many have had to add a second entrance for fire considerations.

Sure. Single operational entrance with smaller emergency exit (see Canada Line)

You might be able to save a bit here and there, but if you can value engineer the subway, you can value engineer the LRT as well (perhaps even more so - don't rebuild the effing road at the same time).

If we can build a Tram at French or Italian costs sure let’s do that as well. I’d just like to see prioritization for areas that have high demand now.

And 40-metre trains, shorter than some streetcars, aren't going to cut it for a downtown subway in Toronto. Isn't the Ontario Line 80 metres, protected for 100 metres in the future?

Canada Line runs 40m trains with 150,000 riders per day (pre pandemic) & they are not even running at designed frequency limits.

 

[sixrings]

Couldn’t we just take out all on street parking on street car routes and give the streetcar its own lane while eliminating all stops which aren’t at lights. As a former downtown resident I would have loved that. Just jump on and jump off versus subways which are so deep these days.

 

[nfitz]

Sure. Single operational entrance with smaller emergency exit (see Canada Line)

By the time you factor in that the number of people you'd have to design to evacuate is MUCH more than the Canada Line, you might as well go with a two staircase design, the cost savings will be so minimal.[/quote]

If we can build a Tram at French or Italian costs sure let’s do that as well. I’d just like to see prioritization for areas that have high demand now.

I'd agree with you if we were still waiting for the Downtown Relief Line. But will we need another main downtown line yet? And what's next? Bay? Spadina?

East-west will be a challenge. Queen and Woodine to Humber Loop via Queen, diverting to Union Station between Bathurst and Parliament?

One day perhaps. I think we can wait until we deal with areas where traffic is projected to significantly increase, like Sheppard East, Eglinton East, Jane.

Canada Line runs 40m trains with 150,000 riders per day (pre pandemic) & they are not even running at designed frequency limits.

Is that all? Are you sure? It must be higher. Though people per hour per direction is the normal criteria. (mind you, Canada Line ridership seems strong in the daytime, I'm always surprised how quiet it is in the evening).

Tiny Line 4 was almost 50,000 per day pre-pandemic. Running not particularly full - and at about 20 percent of design capacity (18.5% if they added the mythical 7th car). (ultimate design is every 90 seconds with a 6-car train, and pre-covid they were running every 6 minutes with a 4-car train

Line 4 is certainly over-designed. But another downtown line is going to need a lot more capacity that a relatively narrow 40-metre train. Not only only are the Line 1 and 2 trains almost 140 metres long (150 metres if they ever put in the mythical 7th car), but they are about 5% wider.

Even if Line 1/2 was only every 2 minutes with the current-length train, the capacity is almost 2.7 times what the Canada Line is. You'd need a 109 Canada Line trains to get the same capacity. Perhaps slightly shorter without the 2 cabins. This is why the ultimate 100-metre long Ontario Line should work (though I fear they've underestimated the demand on Queen).

Once (if) you get Line 1 and 2 down to every 90 seconds, and use a full-length train then the capacity is almost 4 time that of the Canada Line. You'd need almost a 160 metre Canada Line train to move the same number of people.

An 80-metre expandable to 100-metre train for a new subway line downtown is barely acceptable. A 40-metre expandable to 60-metre train won't work. But it could work in suburbia.

 

[Aplus23]

I thought Trudeau opened up some transit infrastructure pool for agency's to draw from, why doesn't the TTC use that