[Metroscapes]

So assuming this goes to Union, I find the idea of using a brand new right-of-way out of Toronto pretty wacky. To me, the two alternative existing rail corridor routes (Kingston-Uxbridge / Bala-Don Branch-North Toronto) are suitable and feasible, albeit tedious to buy / expropriate slices of multiple properties.

I could probably do some GIS magic at some point to confirm, but anecdotally, the latter option seems like it'd be fewer land owners to deal with. The 401 tunnel looks wider on the North Toronto sub than it does on the Uxbridge sub. I'm also seeing better track geometry (the former would have Scarborough Junction and the Uxbridge/Belleville connection to contend with).

 

[crs1026]

The 401 tunnel looks wider on the North Toronto sub than it does on the Uxbridge sub. I'm also seeing better track geometry (the former would have Scarborough Junction and the Uxbridge/Belleville connection to contend with).

The 401 tunnel is most certainly wide enough.

Some of the overpasses would need new spans, but there is pretty much universally room for that. One level crossing (Wicksteed) would likely need grade separation. The bridges over the Don valleys are the biggest single cost item. I would not count on CPKC sharing the existing structures, especially if one proposes an electrified line.

And as noted, the curvature is generally very generous. I could see 90-100 mph all the way from Leaside onwards to Tapscott, and 60-80 down the Don Valley to Don.

If we assume the old Havelock Sub is the chosen route, I can't imagine how the Scarborough Jct route would be superior given the curvature. It might be cheaper, but if that is a consideration, many other bells and whistles will also be value engineered away from a true HSR quality line.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

So assuming this goes to Union, I find the idea of using a brand new right-of-way out of Toronto pretty wacky. To me, the two alternative existing rail corridor routes (Kingston-Uxbridge / Bala-Don Branch-North Toronto) are suitable and feasible, albeit tedious to buy / expropriate slices of multiple properties.

The Don Branch is owned by Metrolinx.

CPKC owns North Toronto, but also Havelock which is the basis of the proposed route.

There is room within the North Toronto ROW for additional tracks; the challenges are the large, high bridge over ET Seton, the at-grade crossing of Beth Nealson, and maybe some need to widen a couple of berms, most of the rest is a retaining wall one one side.

 

[crs1026]

At the point where it ducks under Bayview, the Don Branch is sufficiently below grade to cross under the CP North Toronto Sub. From that point, it's about 700+ meters to the overpass at Millwood.... more than enough room to slope up to match CPKC track level (for comparison, the grade from the portal at John St up to Bathurst St is about 350m.) So creating a flyunder to put HSR on the north side at Leaside is quite doable.

From there, as noted, I count two trestles over branches of the Don, perhaps a bit of widening of the crossing over the DVP, and a few bridges needing new spans. Well worth the investment to avoid crowding LSE and the Stouffville line (remember, LSE will continue to have regional VIA service hopefully frequent as well)

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

High-speed rail project gets lukewarm reaction from Eastern Ontario Wardens Caucus

The Eastern Ontario Warden's Caucus is calling on the Canadian Government and Alto to add more high-speed rail stops in Eastern Ontario.

www.standard-freeholder.com

“While the EOWC supports transportation expansion across rural and small-urban communities as a long-standing priority, if built, this project will cut through our region’s communities without bringing benefits to local businesses, trail systems, tourist destinations, or our 800,000 plus residents,” the EOWC said in a written statement addressed to Alto CEO, Martin Imbleau.

“Although we recognize that a stop is planned in Peterborough, overall, the train network will still have little to no benefit for the region as a whole.”

SDG Warden Martin Lang said he is in full agreement with the EOWC.

“I personally think we need to look at better rail service in this country. We’re a huge country, and some of these other countries, like in Europe are far ahead of us. I think the wardens’ caucus is saying the same thing. We’re very interested in it, but we want to know how they plan to do this,” said Lang. “To me, it’s going to be similar to the 401 when it came through. It’ll cut everything up. It’ll cut up farms, it’ll cut up townships.”

Lang went on to suggest he’d like to see the Canadian government and Alto sit down with local leaders and have a conversation.

 

[micheal_can]

High-speed rail project gets lukewarm reaction from Eastern Ontario Wardens Caucus

The Eastern Ontario Warden's Caucus is calling on the Canadian Government and Alto to add more high-speed rail stops in Eastern Ontario.

www.standard-freeholder.com

This is not about improving services in Eastern ON. This is about connecting 3 of the largest cities in Canada to each other better. If we were to imagine the HSR using the existing Via routing, the only city between Ottawa and Toronto that might see a station would be Kingston. I doubt that would make them happy.

 

[ownthesky]

High-speed rail project gets lukewarm reaction from Eastern Ontario Wardens Caucus

The Eastern Ontario Warden's Caucus is calling on the Canadian Government and Alto to add more high-speed rail stops in Eastern Ontario.

www.standard-freeholder.com

High speed rail or slow rail with stops in every rinky dink village, can't have both. It's funny, Peterborough is laughably small and is basically a political throwaway to appease these folks, but it's apparently not even enough. For those unfamiliar with local politics in Peterborough, many resident of Peterborough believes in 15 minute city conspiracies and other wacky tiktok trucker convoy nonsense, so not exactly a group supportive of rail investments in the first place. I think they need to have a polite but blunt conversation about what the purpose of this rail line is.

 

[zang]

High speed rail or slow rail with stops in every rinky dink village, can't have both. It's funny, Peterborough is laughably small and is basically a political throwaway to appease these folks, but it's apparently not even enough. For those unfamiliar with local politics in Peterborough, many resident of Peterborough believes in 15 minute city conspiracies and other wacky tiktok trucker convoy nonsense, so not exactly a group supportive of rail investments in the first place. I think they need to have a polite but blunt conversation about what the purpose of this rail line is.

My worry since HSR was first seriously brought up (again) about a decade ago that every place through which the HSR will run will decide that they need a stop, and make it a requirement for cooperation.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Adding one or two intermediate stops won't hurt so long as there are express trains (the Barcelona to Madrid line does it quite well). If that's what it takes to get buy-in, and that it doesn't require bending over backwards so be it.

AoD

 

[Urban Sky]

Adding one or two intermediate stops won't hurt so long as there are express trains (the Barcelona to Madrid line does it quite well). If that's what it takes to get buy-in, and that it doesn't require bending over backwards so be it.

AoD

Exactly! Just because you build a station doesn’t mean that every train (or any significant number of them) has to stop there. Look at what small fraction of trains which actually stop at all these rural stations like “Meuse TGV”, “Limburg Süd” or “Maibara” rather than racing through them at 300 km/h…

It’s something like 10% for some of the small stops at the Tokkaido Shinkansen:

 

[bearcat]

Exactly! Just because you build a station doesn’t mean that every train (or any significant number of them) has to stop there. Look at what small fraction of trains which actually stop at all these rural stations like “Meuse TGV”, “Limburg Süd” or “Maibara” rather than racing through them at 300 km/h…

It’s something like 10% for some of the small stops at the Tokkaido Shinkansen:
View attachment 639480

All of your example have four tracks at the stations, hopefully that's also done here in Canada if such rural stations are built.

 

[T3G]

Far fetched idea: Might as well build the station at Thorncliffe Park.
Potential connections to the midtown line, a diverted Richmond Hill line, some sort of connection to the Ontario Line.
One station ride to Union, or use OL to get to East Harbour. Run airport trains via midtown if they want.
-fantasy mode done-

We were closer with the Summerhill suggestion...

 

[Metroscapes]

At the point where it ducks under Bayview, the Don Branch is sufficiently below grade to cross under the CP North Toronto Sub. From that point, it's about 700+ meters to the overpass at Millwood.... more than enough room to slope up to match CPKC track level (for comparison, the grade from the portal at John St up to Bathurst St is about 350m.) So creating a flyunder to put HSR on the north side at Leaside is quite doable.

From there, as noted, I count two trestles over branches of the Don, perhaps a bit of widening of the crossing over the DVP, and a few bridges needing new spans. Well worth the investment to avoid crowding LSE and the Stouffville line (remember, LSE will continue to have regional VIA service hopefully frequent as well)

- Paul

View attachment 639415

Agreed on all this. The crossing over ET Seton is only concerning through my rose-coloured glasses, it's quite a structure.

 

[nfitz]

Exactly! Just because you build a station doesn’t mean that every train (or any significant number of them) has to stop there. Look at what small fraction of trains which actually stop at all these rural stations like “Meuse TGV”, “Limburg Süd” or “Maibara” rather than racing through them at 300 km/h…

It’s something like 10% for some of the small stops at the Tokkaido Shinkansen ...

Another example is the 305 km/hr HSR from Seoul to Busan which is about 415 km long, but has 8 intermediary stations (and yes 4 tracks at the stations). About the same distance as Toronto. They even have another station preceding Seoul on some services, a branch to a different HSR destination, and an HSR route into an alternate HSR station in Seoul's Gangnam district.

That's a similar length to Toronto to Ottawa. Similarly spaced stations would let you put stations in (for example off the top of my head), Scarborough, Peterborough, Havelock, Madoc, Sharbot Lake, Perth, Smiths Falls, and Barrhaven!

 

[just east of the creek]

Another example is the 305 km/hr HSR from Seoul to Busan which is about 415 km long, but has 8 intermediary stations (and yes 4 tracks at the stations). About the same distance as Toronto. They even have another station preceding Seoul on some services, a branch to a different HSR destination, and an HSR route into an alternate HSR station in Seoul's Gangnam district.

That's a similar length to Toronto to Ottawa. Similarly spaced stations would let you put stations in (for example off the top of my head), Scarborough, Peterborough, Havelock, Madoc, Sharbot Lake, Perth, Smiths Falls, and Barrhaven!

I knew Sharbot Lake would make the list! Bring on the design renders for the station and the accompanying transit node!!