[lenaitch]

Lots of napkin-based speculation and engineering going on. I have no clue what or where it look like but am pretty confident one federal government backed project will not be ejecting a federal Crown corporation. The terminal itself will be a challenge but getting there will be a bigger one and I'm not sure they can do it without a lot of tunneling.

 

[MisterF]

I don’t think they have any space at Union to have the ALTO station integrated to union, where there’s already GO and VIA rail. That’s why I fantasized with having it at 1 Front St W. And just have a tunnel connecting both buildings.

I mean to extend your logic there's no space at any train station in Toronto. Space will have to be created for a central station regardless. The only place it makes any sense to create that space is at Union.

There are much busier train stations than Union that don't take up any more space.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

Toronto area could get two high-speed rail stations — not just one — says Alto CEO

MONTREAL - The head of the country's high-speed rail project says the Greater Toronto Area could be home to two stations rather than one as previously planned.

www.thecanadianpressnews.ca

So that means potentially three stations in the Toronto area in the fullness of time: something in an east-end suburb, Union Station, and YYZ.

I dislike this speculation happening right now because even though I know Ottawa has two VIA rail stations, I have to wonder whereabouts they'd run the second station in Toronto if they were to run at the speeds they do.

Not only do you have to deal with expropriation of land, you're either tunneling the entire project when you hit Toronto, or you're doing an above grade portion over existing rail or road.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

In Toronto a second station would almost certainly be an outer suburban how far out is going to depend on exact path, but think something like Reesor Rd/407/Hwy 7.

As far as tunnelling.. I have a hard time imagining getting better value out of undergrounding the HSR line than of doing something like the old GO Concept, optimizing the tunnel for through running frequency and using... the big terminal optimized surface station as the intercity terminal.

 

[micheal_can]

I think not going to union would be a mistake but also integrating ALTO to the same building at Union is also a mistake because union is already too crowed. Too much to handle with the TTC, GO and VIA. 1 Front St is the perfect way to expand Union to the East while still being so close and easy to connect as 1 giant transit Hub.

If we assume they are using the same tracks, you are right. But, if we assume they dig out new tracks and platforms and the actual station concourse,and it is integrated with the new Ontario Line, then the station should be able to support it. Another added thing is if this happens with GO RER fully implemented, the station empties out quick enough.

And moreover, the 407 / Yonge concept likely has some real constructability benefits. I'd be surprised if there isn't some real advocacy for it happening internally.

What I found interesting initially was that there were no plans for a suburban GTA station. Peterborough is not GTA. So, if they use the Havelock routing, a Markham station would make sense.

 

[Mihairokov]

Lots of napkin-based speculation and engineering going on.

Lots of utilizing AI which I cannot support.

 

[CapitalSeven]

In Toronto a second station would almost certainly be an outer suburban how far out is going to depend on exact path, but think something like Reesor Rd/407/Hwy 7.

Hmm. That location makes some sense as the suburban location once the core station is in place, as the roads at the top of the GTA lead to it. But if we are talking about a station to be used for some time while a downtown approach is completed, I don't think it will fly. There's no good way to do the last 30 km, and it really won't attract much visitor traffic. I think something closer to Sheppard/Brimley/McCowan is more suitable because it's close to TTC rapid transit. One hopes Metrolinx and ALTO are talking about all of this constructively and planning to coordinate their networks. I still think we need a federal/provincial "big move" on the midtown corridor and a bypass to solve many of the GTA transport problems.

 

[guavadelic]

Flooding the zone is my interpretation of what is happening, and I believe it is, at the very least, being loosely coordinated. Call me over-optimistic, but I don’t really think it is going to work, given the broad and general national-level support for HSR. I have seen this happen before with the Gordie Howe Bridge, which had very wealthy and politically-connected individuals in opposition spending 20+ years pouring millions of dollars into trying to prevent the project from ever getting built. The opinion pieces from back then were framing it as a near certainty that the Morouns were too powerful of an authority to allow the GHIB to get built. However, it never worked out that way because the project was too important, and government/crown corp stuck to their guns to get it built, all the way through the extensive land acquisition process and political fighting with Michigan and White House Republicans. I believe that the oppositional element was artificially elevated by the media in order to drive engagement, and was drastically overblown. If the feds want to get HSR done, they will absolutely get it done, regardless of the stream of fecal matter coming out of these opinion pieces, NIMBY groups, and the federal opposition.

The concern is the length of time it'll take to complete the project. I believe their estimated completion timelines are optimistic, MTL-OTT likely won't be completed before 2040 and the complete line likely in the late 2040s. Will be ample opportunity for the project to be at least vastly curtailed.

Hmm. That location makes some sense as the suburban location once the core station is in place, as the roads at the top of the GTA lead to it. But if we are talking about a station to be used for some time while a downtown approach is completed, I don't think it will fly. There's no good way to do the last 30 km, and it really won't attract much visitor traffic. I think something closer to Sheppard/Brimley/McCowan is more suitable because it's close to TTC rapid transit. One hopes Metrolinx and ALTO are talking about all of this constructively and planning to coordinate their networks. I still think we need a federal/provincial "big move" on the midtown corridor and a bypass to solve many of the GTA transport problems.

Agreed, I didn't understand that statement in the article. Project doesn't make sense without a station in the core, with all the nearby destinations and available connections. A suburban station is likely necessary to increase the catchment area for the service but like you said it should be complimentary not a replacement for a downtown station, even in the interim.

 

[Thaboss]

Our Dedicated Approach to Agricultural Land


I believe this is a new page in ALTOs website. Clearly meant to address some of the concerns we've been hearing.

 

[DarwinP]

I mean to extend your logic there's no space at any train station in Toronto. Space will have to be created for a central station regardless. The only place it makes any sense to create that space is at Union.

There are much busier train stations than Union that don't take up any more space.

Absolutely space needs to be created I agree, but I think it’s much easier, less disruptive and cheaper to build an ALTO train station at 1 Front St W, than at Union station. It would be an east extension of Union station itself.
The logistics at both sites would be very challenging and very expensive but you don’t have millions of passengers in multiple transit system passing through 1 Front st like you have at Union station.
Not to mention the waterfront East LRT is gonna happen too bringing even more construction to Union. I don’t have faith in any level of government to build anything remotely close to this, but this would be my ideal location for an ALTO train Station

 

[StreetcarRider]

Our Dedicated Approach to Agricultural Land


I believe this is a new page in ALTOs website. Clearly meant to address some of the concerns we've been hearing.

Why have they used corporate stock pictures instead of actual Ontario/Quebec farms? Farmers seem to be complaining that nobody is listening to them or taking their concerns seriously. Using pics of models standing in prairie wheat fields thousands of kilometres away might, in fact, contribute to that negative impression.

 

[nfitz]

Absolutely space needs to be created I agree, but I think it’s much easier, less disruptive and cheaper to build an ALTO train station at 1 Front St W, than at Union station. It would be an east extension of Union station itself.
The logistics at both sites would be very challenging and very expensive but you don’t have millions of passengers in multiple transit system passing through 1 Front st like you have at Union station.
Not to mention the waterfront East LRT is gonna happen too bringing even more construction to Union. I don’t have faith in any level of government to build anything remotely close to this, but this would be my ideal location for an ALTO train Station

Why post this slow-loading AI crap a second time?

 

[Voltz]

The concern is the length of time it'll take to complete the project. I believe their estimated completion timelines are optimistic, MTL-OTT likely won't be completed before 2040 and the complete line likely in the late 2040s. Will be ample opportunity for the project to be at least vastly curtailed.

Agreed, I didn't understand that statement in the article. Project doesn't make sense without a station in the core, with all the nearby destinations and available connections. A suburban station is likely necessary to increase the catchment area for the service but like you said it should be complimentary not a replacement for a downtown station, even in the interim.

If an interim suburban terminal needs to be in place while waiting for the connection to Union to be completed, then it could be doable if it’s on a frequent GO line. Could be preferable to not running the service at all.

 

[micheal_can]

If an interim suburban terminal need to be in place while waiting for the connection to Union to be completed, then it could be doable if it’s on a frequent GO line. Could be preferable to not running the service at all.

One thing a lot of this discussion ignores is the extensions from Toronto west.(I am not talking western Canada.) Union is needed, not just for a connection to GO, but also a connection to UPX, Via, Amtrak and the new Northlander. However, a 'temporary' Toronto station, located near the Agincourt yard could work while the tunnel to downtown is built. This line is going to be a phased opening. No reason the last 30km to Union have to be opened when the section west of Ottawa opens.

 

[stfeinberg]

with officials coming out and saying 2 stations will be needed to service toronto, agincourt is pretty much confirmed no? I can't imagine they would put it anywhere else and have it make sense.