[nfitz]

Why would battery trains be useless and do nothing? They are used all over and this is a very short line. They would get rid of the cost of the catenary, are easier to expand, have lower clearance heights, and don't have the visual pollution.

Because this is a network. You'll see cars diverting, all sorts of things. You aren't going to start by building a line that needs special cars.

You start by buying bi-directional cars with batteries. And then once you've got 100% conversion (or 80% perhaps, like with the catenary) you start making changes to the wiring and loops that require batteries and bi-directionality.

But we've already purchased the cars ... so why the heck would we be having this discussion now? Save it for 2040, in a different thread.

Let's do a comparison shall we? Montreal's completely grade separated REM of 67km with 25 station needed to go under Mount Royal, have 3 new Metro interchanges, and goes over the mighty St.Lawrence and all this for $8.4 billion. Conversely, Toronto is getting is a 4km streetcar for $3 billion. Does that put things into perspective?

I don't believe that the $8.4 billion paid for anything more than the wire and metal tracks on that brand new bridge over the St. Lawrence - so that's a few billion saved. That and the free railway tunnel they stole with fake news about VIA being able to share it.

Much of that 67 km is on existing track.

And where did you get $8.4 billion? That was the 2023 price. By 2024 it was up to $9.4. Who knows what it's up to now ... and how much more fixing it will take. And good grief - just how much longer before Griffintown station finally opens - the only completely new station in central Montreal. And looks like the only other completely new downtown station closer to the Lachine Canal is permanently cancelled.

The discussion shouldn't be about the project, but if there's opposition to the cost, remove the expensive bits (Cherry and the new Union loop) and just run Waterfront East service on Queens Quay from somewhere in the west, not entering Union. Then all you need is the portal, and everything else is relatively cheap. That should get it into the hundreds of millions not billions.

Most of the money is in Union Station and some in the Cherry subway expansion.

 

[GameOnBrad]

I think someone challenged my assertion a little while ago about the underpass by Cherry Loop flooding.

View attachment 732944

Not a fantastic pic but I was biking.

In any case, we haven’t even had a good solid rain today and this collected. I wish I could find the pictures I took when the west side of the road was flooded.

Point is- I dunno if those bioswales replacing the loop are gonna be enough to keep a dug out roadway dry, when stuff gets built.

Oh, that. Yah. Happens all the time and not the worst I've seen it.

 

[DSCToronto]

Oh, that. Yah. Happens all the time and not the worst I've seen it.

It certainly does get dirty under the Cherry Street rail bridge but I have never seen it 'flooded' - the real problem is the street (certainly not the bike track) is never swept and any water running under the bridge turns the dirt to mud.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The current Flexity Outlook streetcars were first ordered in 2009, with the first one arriving in 2011. In 2025, the TTC put the last "new" Outlook streetcar into service. It is estimated that streetcars have a life expectancy of thirty or more years. So hopefully when the Waterfront East comes into service, they would be able to use the Outlook service for a decade or so before needing to order new streetcars, with a different design (and new battery technology) probably by then.

 

[ssiguy2]

How was Montreal's REM built? It was partially funded thru CDPQ helping not only the financial ability to pay for it but also the CDPQ has to cover any cost overruns on it's own. In other words, it was done on a cost/benefit analysis and CDPQ determined that the investment could be justified by the future potential revenue........it made financial sense where both the CDPQ and transit riders benefit.

Now, do you think that you would get a single company willing to do the same for this gold plated little line? I think not. After approaching some fund companies and them laughing themselves into hysteria, the answer would be a polite no. If this little line has to come in at $3 billion then it is NOT, under any stretch of the imagination, worth the money. This kind of money would easily electrify the entire RER network, buy an entire fleet of new BEMU/EMU units, serve hundred of thousands {or potentially a million} of passengers, greatly cut down on GHG emissions, save GO a fortune in ever rising fuel costs, offer superior service, and offer rapid transit access to millions of Torontonians who currently don't have it as opposed to the precious few thousand that have the luxury of being able to afford to live on the Waterfront.

 

[StreetcarRider]

How was Montreal's REM built? It was partially funded thru CDPQ helping not only the financial ability to pay for it but also the CDPQ has to cover any cost overruns on it's own. In other words, it was done on a cost/benefit analysis and CDPQ determined that the investment could be justified by the future potential revenue........it made financial sense where both the CDPQ and transit riders benefit.

Now, do you think that you would get a single company willing to do the same for this gold plated little line? I think not. After approaching some fund companies and them laughing themselves into hysteria, the answer would be a polite no. If this little line has to come in at $3 billion then it is NOT, under any stretch of the imagination, worth the money. This kind of money would easily electrify the entire RER network, buy an entire fleet of new BEMU/EMU units, serve hundred of thousands {or potentially a million} of passengers, greatly cut down on GHG emissions, save GO a fortune in ever rising fuel costs, offer superior service, and offer rapid transit access to millions of Torontonians who currently don't have it as opposed to the precious few thousand that have the luxury of being able to afford to live on the Waterfront.

Bear in mind that the QQE line is supposed to reach further into the east end with links to at least one more high-capacity place.

The line is supposed to eventually continue along Commissioners Street to the Leslie Barns. But importantly, it will interconnect with the Broadview Ave extension. The extension is planned to have streetcars in dedicated lanes south of Queen, and to provide the only direct, high-capacity surface connection for East Harbour station. The station is supposed to eventually handle a vast volume of riders on the Ontario Line and the two easterly GO lines, not to mention whatever gets built in a dense new neighbourhood there. However, streetcars cannot start to run on the Broadview extension until they have somewhere to turn around at the south end, and interconnection with the line serving Ookwemin Minising would be a sensible option and seems to be in the plans. That's why there is room for a second bridge over the Don River beside the orange bridge in Biidaasige Park.

In the more distant future, if the Hearn ever gets redeveloped, there are concepts for the Broadview extension and its streetcar tracks to reach south over the shipping channel to a loop at the Hearn. That would provide an interesting connection to that redevelopment (especially if it becomes an event space) as well as the sports fields and beaches around Cherry St.

So, the current QQE project is not the complete vision. The connection to East Harbour station is looking quite valuable.

 

[nfitz]

In the more distant future, if the Hearn ever gets redeveloped, there are concepts for the Broadview extension and its streetcar tracks to reach south over the shipping channel to a loop at the Hearn. That would provide an interesting connection to that redevelopment (especially if it becomes an event space) as well as the sports fields and beaches around Cherry St.

More critically (and the only reason they are planning streetcar along Unwin Street) is to access the high density residential between Unwin and the shipping channel.

 

[StreetcarRider]

More critically (and the only reason they are planning streetcar along Unwin Street) is to access the high density residential between Unwin and the shipping channel.

Thanks! I had missed this update about the Hearn site from February. See Attachment 10 for a diagram showing the streetcar plans including the potential Hearn Loop:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2026/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-264753.pdf

This diagram reminded me that the QQE project also includes tracks under the rail berm on Cherry. This connection requires removing the current Distillery loop. That loop is currently the eastern terminus for half of the very busy 504 King line. Those streetcars are also going to need somewhere else to turn around in the east end, and could do so on some of the new infrastructure potentially.

 

[nfitz]

This diagram reminded me that the QQE project also includes tracks under the rail berm on Cherry. This connection requires removing the current Distillery loop. That loop is currently the eastern terminus for half of the very busy 504 King line. Those streetcars are also going to need somewhere else to turn around in the east end, and could do so on some of the new infrastructure potentially.

I'm not sure why a Cherry underpass precludes a (possibly reconfigured) loop there.

Though I think we've seen the relatively final plans posted here; I can't remember where this landed.

 

[StreetcarRider]

I'm not sure why a Cherry underpass precludes a (possibly reconfigured) loop there.

Though I think we've seen the relatively final plans posted here; I can't remember where this landed.

I believe this presentation is the latest from Waterfront Toronto, and it contemplates eliminating the loop.

https://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/sites/default/files/2022-02/WDRP%20February%2023%2C%202022%20-%20WELRT%20QQE%20Area%202B-C%20Cherry%20North_Schematic%20Design%20%28reduced%29.pdf

 

[nfitz]

I believe this presentation is the latest from Waterfront Toronto, and it contemplates eliminating the loop.

https://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/sites/default/files/2022-02/WDRP%20February%2023%2C%202022%20-%20WELRT%20QQE%20Area%202B-C%20Cherry%20North_Schematic%20Design%20%28reduced%29.pdf

If that's the design (from 2022) at Cherry it most certainly does eliminate it. But it's not the latest, as the latest had moved the loop on Ookwemin Minising to Commissioners, turning at Cherry to an on-street loop towards the eastern side of the polder.

Perhaps it advances the old plans to build a loop at Broadview and Queen. A loop at Commissioners/Broadview might be fine for Broadview services, but it seems a stretch for the King services from Dundas West station. The old frequent looping on-street by Parliament/Dundas/Broadview dosn't seem like the best solution with all the development that's since grown up south of King.

 

[DSCToronto]

I believe this presentation is the latest from Waterfront Toronto, and it contemplates eliminating the loop.

https://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/sites/default/files/2022-02/WDRP%20February%2023%2C%202022%20-%20WELRT%20QQE%20Area%202B-C%20Cherry%20North_Schematic%20Design%20%28reduced%29.pdf

Yes, once there is a loop on Commissioners, there will be no need for one on Cherry and having one there greatly complicates the new streetcar tunnel below the rail berm.

 

[xmyth_]

Yes, once there is a loop on Commissioners, there will be no need for one on Cherry and having one there greatly complicates the new streetcar tunnel below the rail berm.

I was gonna ask if keeping the loop for big crowds like the Christmas Market would make a difference, then remembered there’s gonna be a whole subway stop two large blocks away.

So I’m sure that impacts decisions

 

[StreetcarRider]

I was gonna ask if keeping the loop for big crowds like the Christmas Market would make a difference, then remembered there’s gonna be a whole subway stop two large blocks away.

So I’m sure that impacts decisions

Just my two cents, but while we're in a moment of talking about major projects and splashing money from three levels of government around, and given the current status of all the projects happening in the south-east end, I wish they'd just bite the bullet and get the Cherry/Commissioners/Broadview Extension/Queen/King loop built within the next decade rather than bothering with a loop on the island. The island loop made sense in an earlier time, when the developments on the island were expected to be finished faster than the developments further east, but a good argument exists that events have overtaken.

My understanding is that the Broadview extension is going to be built at the same time as East Harbour station, once the flood protection is done, at least as far south as Lakeshore. When will that be done? Well, East Harbour's GO sections are apparently supposed to come into service in under five years. Within another five years after that, the Ontario Line should be in service (hopefully). Construction of buildings on the East Harbour site, Ookwemin Minising, and other sites in between (like the McCleary District and some sites directly on the new Broadview extension between Lakeshore and Commissioners) will probably also advance during that time. If East Harbour station is, ten years from now, still serviced by a shuttle bus because the QQE LRT and half the King streetcars short-turn on a quiet side street on the island then... what are we even doing? [end rant]

 

[DSCToronto]

Just my two cents, but while we're in a moment of talking about major projects and splashing money from three levels of government around, and given the current status of all the projects happening in the south-east end, I wish they'd just bite the bullet and get the Cherry/Commissioners/Broadview Extension/Queen/King loop built within the next decade rather than bothering with a loop on the island. The island loop made sense in an earlier time, when the developments on the island were expected to be finished faster than the developments further east, but a good argument exists that events have overtaken.

My understanding is that the Broadview extension is going to be built at the same time as East Harbour station, once the flood protection is done, at least as far south as Lakeshore. When will that be done? Well, East Harbour's GO sections are apparently supposed to come into service in under five years. Within another five years after that, the Ontario Line should be in service (hopefully). Construction of buildings on the East Harbour site, Ookwemin Minising, and other sites in between (like the McCleary District and some sites directly on the new Broadview extension between Lakeshore and Commissioners) will probably also advance during that time. If East Harbour station is, ten years from now, still serviced by a shuttle bus because the QQE LRT and half the King streetcars short-turn on a quiet side street on the island then... what are we even doing? [end rant]

You need to remember that (for good reason) planning takes a long to (yes, too long) and one of our problems here is that we start off planning something but the cast changes and the next lot wants to redesign but before anything get but they are out and the newest lot want another idea. We have (after 20 years) reached the point where we have a plan for transit on QQE, we have almost 'build ready' plans and we have $$$. This is NOT the time to stay 'oh, time to redesign".