[dougtoronto]

I wonder whether we could have streetcars going via York, Front, and Bay, even with a temporary at-grade detour while they figure out the below ground drama.

Quoting myself because I truly do wonder what the cost would even be to tunnel down York, go at-grade at Front right outside Union, and then use the Bay tunnel sans-loop down. I think it's worth considering running it at-grade if necessary (perhaps making streets one-way, and in that case using Simcoe and Freeland instead, for instance) but I don't imagine the cost of tunnelling a few blocks through York being higher than that of the new Union loop.

 

[Rainforest]

10 years is before the rebuild of the Bay streetcar subway and stations would be completed.

I mean, if the solution is needed within the next 2 or 3 years, then OL will not help, because there is no way it can be built that quickly.

But yeah, there is a possibility that the Waterfront plan will remain in limbo for the next 7 or 8 years, while the OL will be progressing. Slowly, yet steadily. And then at some point, a connection to the OL stations will become the most practical solution for the WE transit.

 

[Rainforest]

Quoting myself because I truly do wonder what the cost would even be to tunnel down York, go at-grade at Front right outside Union, and then use the Bay tunnel sans-loop down. I think it's worth considering running it at-grade if necessary (perhaps making streets one-way, and in that case using Simcoe and Freeland instead, for instance) but I don't imagine the cost of tunnelling a few blocks through York being higher than that of the new Union loop.

Emerging from the tunnel / going back into the tunnel, right in front of the Union station - probably, no space for the portals.

If not all the way in the tunnel, then it should be easier to loop entirely at the surface level.

 

[nfitz]

I mean, if the solution is needed within the next 2 or 3 years, then OL will not help, because there is no way it can be built that quickly.

But yeah, there is a possibility that the Waterfront plan will remain in limbo for the next 7 or 8 years, while the OL will be progressing. Slowly, yet steadily. And then at some point, a connection to the OL stations will become the most practical solution for the WE transit.

Even if it's not in Limbo, we are looking at the 2030s before the Union transformations are complete (for which there is no money anyhow). More like 2040s, as I expect Limbo

 

[Rainforest]

Even if it's not in Limbo, we are looking at the 2030s before the Union transformations are complete (for which there is no money anyhow). More like 2040s, as I expect Limbo

If the need is urgent enough to consider a surface streetcar loop - either York - Front - Bay, or Bay - Front - Yonge, then the construction could be done is 2 or 3 years.

 

[drum118]

What about coming into Union on the surface? Right up Bay or Yonge. This doesn't seem like it would be so complicated and you could run the line as far up as the TTC thought feasible, looping via King or Queen or whatever. Obviously a tunnel would be better but at this point...

I recommended it back in 2008 and we even had a site meeting with TTC who shot it down at once.

You have a number of issues to do the surface route starting with:
1: Closing Bay 100% to traffic from QQ to Queen and making it a transit/pedestrian mall that would solve the sidewalk issues at peak time.
2: Then you need crossing gates both at Harbour and Lake Shore to stop traffic blocking the intersections.
3: Move to duel end cars with platforms for tracks not going north on Bay to Bloor with stub tracks at Bloor. You could get 4 tracks on Bay at Union with platforms. Having streetcars return to Bay has been a vision of TTC to deal with the overcrowding of the Yonge line and stations but TTC wasn't sure where to put the loop.
4: Not using duel end cars, where do you loop the streetcar and what will the mix traffic do to it on that route.
5: Pedestrian crossing QQ and Bay intersection was TTC real concern.
6: There was a thought of an east-west tunnel between Bay and Yonge with a tunnel on Yonge to connect to QQ, There would be long platforms when the site was redeveloped and operate as two separate lines

If the need is urgent enough to consider a surface streetcar loop - either York - Front - Bay, or Bay - Front - Yonge, then the construction could be done is 2 or 3 years.

Ford will kill that plan within hours once it surface and that idea was looked at for the EA as well the 2019 review and kill.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

In lieu of a revamped Union loop we should at least be looking into a solid streetcar connection to either East Harbour or Corktown stations. Perhaps even going from East Harbour to Corktown and back through the Port Lands and Cherry Street. I don't know, but clearly something needs to happen ASAP.

Yep, it might just be more viable. And as a plus we’d get the Commissioner’s bridge sooner too.

What about coming into Union on the surface? Right up Bay or Yonge. This doesn't seem like it would be so complicated and you could run the line as far up as the TTC thought feasible, looping via King or Queen or whatever. Obviously a tunnel would be better but at this point...

I think it was one of the alternatives studied and rejected. I can see if I can dig it up.

AoD

 

[DSCToronto]

Yep, it might just be more viable. And as a plus we’d get the Commissioner’s bridge sooner too.


I think it was one of the alternatives studied and rejected. I can see if I can dig it up.

AoD

Adding a surface LRT line (and adding it in a dedicated ROW) would make Bay Street useless for other vehicles and it would be blocked pretty much all the time for everyone. Improving the underground link and expanding the loop are really essential and we just need to 'get on with it'.

 

[nfitz]

If the need is urgent enough to consider a surface streetcar loop - either York - Front - Bay, or Bay - Front - Yonge, then the construction could be done is 2 or 3 years.

Yes, but I really doubt that's in the cards. More likely would be a through track on Queen's Quay and/or a connection at Cherry.

If there was to be a temporary surface loop somewhere, is there a way to do it south of the tracks?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Adding a surface LRT line (and adding it in a dedicated ROW) would make Bay Street useless for other vehicles and it would be blocked pretty much all the time for everyone. Improving the underground link and expanding the loop are really essential and we just need to 'get on with it'.

For a surface LRT or streetcar line, we would have to ban all non-local residential motor vehicles from most downtown streets. That won't happen with the automobile disciples we have at Transportation Services and city council. The priority is still towards the giant single-occupant SUV, unfortunately.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Honestly, I can't understand why the city is still waiting for the province or the feds, and wouldn't fund WE LRT project by itself. At least, the rebuild of the Union loop and the tunnel.

The amount of funding needed is substantial, but a lot less than for any of the subway projects currently supported by the province.

Furthermore, the city should still have some funds assembled by John Tory, first to support SSE, then reassigned to Eg East LRT. Since Eg East is not going anywhere without a massive additional funding, those funds are sitting idle (unless already used up for something else). But if applied to the Union loop rebuild, they can actually do something useful.

I have thought this myself too. @Northern Light isn't the city sitting on something like $12 Billion of reserves? And even budgeted capital is not being spent?

 

[Northern Light]

I have thought this myself too. @Northern Light isn't the city sitting on something like $12 Billion of reserves? And even budgeted capital is not being spent?

Last time I checked, tail end of 2023, closer to 6B.

Which is a lot, but when consider the annual budget almost 3x that, its not as huge as it first seems.

There are good reasons for many of the reserves............

But there is certainly some excess available.

 

[Rainforest]

I thought of a dedicated property surtax. Similar to what John Tory was collecting for SSE. But this time, for the Waterfront transit.

A temporary surtax that ends once the project is built, is easier to stomack than a general property tax increase that never gets reverted.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The priority bus lanes are visible on Google Earth.

 

[dowlingm]

I thought of a dedicated property surtax. Similar to what John Tory was collecting for SSE. But this time, for the Waterfront transit.

A temporary surtax that ends once the project is built, is easier to stomack than a general property tax increase that never gets reverted

Except the “dedicated” SSE surtax is now the “city building fund”. Let’s make the case by all means that the city’s ongoing needs requires more taxation, but let’s not try and tell the people it’s gonna be temporary when John Tory already made sure nobody who cares about whether it’s temporary will believe it will be temporary

Edit because I forgot a link

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-city-building-fund-increase-1.5383788