[p_xavier]

They have never been clear on the plan for the Corridor after ALTO. There has been a lot of conjecture, but nothing clear from the actual company.

Well just from this paragraph I guess, from ALTO's website.

VIA Rail’s passenger rail services in the Toronto–Québec City corridor will continue to operate during the development of Alto. Eventually, these existing local services will be integrated with Alto services to form a single network.

The implementation of Alto offers the opportunity to improve services on these existing rail routes so as to better address local needs, such as more tailored service schedules. This work will be further explored during the development phase of the project.

 

[reaperexpress]

Yes, I'm aware. But do we know that even if an overnight storage situation in Kingston was to go ahead, would this minimalist approach meet VIA safety and security requirements? Will CN approve it, though it hasn't been used since the pandemic and relations between CN and VIA are not currently the best? It was a dark, unlit, isolated and exposed location adjacent to a city street with zero security. The catering arrangements don't ring a bell. It's never been done with Venture sets.

The Ottawa start was a way to get the train consist through Kingston early in the morning, but overnighting the consist in Kingston is I'm sure what the politicians are thinking of, and it's really the only one that makes sense. Kingston has always been far more in the Toronto orbit re: day trips. Much more than Ottawa or Montreal. And though citizens and politicians may want it, and public support would definitely help, and though the early-morning up, late-night back train service was in place for years, it's been out of service for years and VIA is operating in a much different environment now.

We don't know the answers to those technical questions, but Via would only investigate them if someone is making a fuss.

The current timetables are remarkably bad for intermediate cities since they lack those aforementioned morning and evening trains. No early morning trains from Kingston to Montreal or Ottawa, and no late-evening trains from Montreal or Ottawa. This is not just about Kingston, it's also about all the other cities to the east. At Brockville station, the first train to Montreal doesn't depart until 14:56. At Cornwall, the first eastbound train doesn't depart until 10:40. From a pure cost/revenue perspective Via's current strategy of focusing on the 3 big cities is probably the right answer. But if we were to consider public rail service to be a public service, there would probably be case to introduce a wider span of service for intermediate cities even if that means reducing the number of Toronto-Ottawa trains from 10 round trips to 9.

 

[nfitz]

This really is a political move, not a transportation planning move. The Mayor of Kingston has an ongoing issue with VIA not realizing Kingston was never going to play a big role in the HSR/HFR route.

True - but the proposed service reduction does demonstrate that VIA was lying when they said that once HFR was in place, they would still be providing the same frequent service to Kingston. And yet not long after that blatant lie, they are already cutting Kingston service?

When there was an early departure from Kingston to Toronto the trains layed over at the cement plant overnight.

What's wrong with the current scheme? The current westbound earliest departure (train 641) from Ottawa, departs Kingston at 6:19 AM, arriving Toronto at 8:48 AM. That old pre-Covid early train (651) that started in Kingston, left at 5:32 AM, but didn't arrive in Toronto until 8:25 AM. Heck - I think I prefer the current schedule, with over 45-minutes more sleep!

I remember much of the CN Weston Sub being bolted rail when it was a single track corridor prior to GO Transit’s acquisition and reconstruction. But it’s been a long time now since I’ve heard that clickity clack.

Ah, good point. I was thinking of the Montreal-Ottawa-Kingston triangle. I certainly heard (felt!) clickety-clack on the Montreal-Quebec city trains on the Trois-Rivières line, in the late 1980s!

I have a high-school essay I desperately wrote on a Sunday evening from about 1981 from Toronto to Montreal. As soon as we hit the non-CWR my handwriting went from smooth to jumpy - it was quite notable!

 

[micheal_can]

Any rumours on when VIA will finish retirement for all the legacy trainsets in the Corridor?

My assumption based on what is going on now is that Via will need to order more coaches to lengthen all the Siemens sets. Till that is done, the legacy coaches will have to remain.

Well just from this paragraph I guess, from ALTO's website.

That "more tailored service schedules" part sounds like a way to weasel out of keeping the current level of service. I hope all places that currently have service make enough noise to show Via and ALTO that cutting service is not acceptable.

 

[smallspy]

My assumption based on what is going on now is that Via will need to order more coaches to lengthen all the Siemens sets. Till that is done, the legacy coaches will have to remain.

As usual, your assumption is wrong.

Dan

 

[roger1818]

My assumption based on what is going on now is that Via will need to order more coaches to lengthen all the Siemens sets. Till that is done, the legacy coaches will have to remain.

Or purchase shunt enhancers, when they are available and approved for use. There might be an argument to order some additional mid-train coaches to increase capacity, but they very well may become superfluous once Alto comes online.

That "more tailored service schedules" part sounds like a way to weasel out of keeping the current level of service. I hope all places that currently have service make enough noise to show Via and ALTO that cutting service is not acceptable.

It really depends on your perspective and your definition of level of service. Kingston will almost definitely see a reduction in the number of arrivals/departures, since currently almost all trains between Montreal/Ottawa and Toronto stop in Kingston. Many of those trains are only 5-10 minutes apart so aren't really useful as separate departures to/from Toronto though. Most other stations will see a similar number of arrivals/departures and some might even see an increase. There will almost certainly be an improvement in connections between smaller cities and many times a train that stops in one smaller city doesn't stop in another smaller cities that someone might want to travel to.

More significantly, the timing of the arrivals/departures can be optimized for local service. Currently the priority is serving the big cities, and everyone else gets the dregs. Once the big cities have dedicated routes, the trains can be optimized for the smaller ones.

 

[dowlingm]

True - but the proposed service reduction does demonstrate that VIA was lying when they said that once HFR was in place, they would still be providing the same frequent service to Kingston.

VIA aren't in a position to guarantee anything with respect to post HFR service since the government decided they wouldn't be running it...

 

[micheal_can]

As usual, your assumption is wrong.

Dan

Well, the general assumption was that once all the new fleet showed up, the old fleet would be retired. Clearly that assumption is wrong. So, either they get the shunts, or they get more coaches. However, till one of those are done, the legacy fleet remains.

Or purchase shunt enhancers, when they are available and approved for use. There might be an argument to order some additional mid-train coaches to increase capacity, but they very well may become superfluous once Alto comes online.

That is an option too.

It really depends on your perspective and your definition of level of service. Kingston will almost definitely see a reduction in the number of arrivals/departures, since currently almost all trains between Montreal/Ottawa and Toronto stop in Kingston. Many of those trains are only 5-10 minutes apart so aren't really useful as separate departures to/from Toronto though. Most other stations will see a similar number of arrivals/departures and some might even see an increase. There will almost certainly be an improvement in connections between smaller cities and many times a train that stops in one smaller city doesn't stop in another smaller cities that someone might want to travel to.

More significantly, the timing of the arrivals/departures can be optimized for local service. Currently the priority is serving the big cities, and everyone else gets the dregs. Once the big cities have dedicated routes, the trains can be optimized for the smaller ones.

My definition of level of service is the same number of trains a day. The more you cut, the more irrelevant you make it. The more irrelevant it is, the less people will use it. The less people will lose it, the more reasons to cut it.

Ideally they have the same number of trains a day, but the slot times are modified to reflect that the trains will not be to service the needs of the big cities, but the smaller cities and towns.

 

[kEiThZ]

If they are going to grow the business, yes.

The Venture order was sized on a seat-for-seat basis relative to the “old” fleet. In theory there would be short term gains thru greater reliability and more productive equipment utilisation…. But that is notional at best and leaves little true room for growth. It was a beancounting decision not a business decision, and this was followed by cancellation of options for further cars.

Definitely the CN signalling kaffuffle is being resolved by reconfiguring to fewer, longer trainsets. The juggling of cycling can only mitigate this so much.

- Paul

I would love to know if adding coaches makes money for them or is a net increase in subsidy.

 

[nfitz]

VIA aren't in a position to guarantee anything with respect to post HFR service since the government decided they wouldn't be running it...

It all reports to the same Minister. And I seem to recall it was endorsed by more than just VIA.

 

[crs1026]

I would love to know if adding coaches makes money for them or is a net increase in subsidy.

I bet it turns their whole pricing strategy on its head. Their demand management pricing made the last few seats on a full train (there are more of these than one might think) very lucrative. Now instead of a five-car train they have the opportunity to fill seven cars, but the per-seat price that achieves that may be lower. And they may have to rethink their whole time of day pricing. When you add two coaches to the 17:00 train, how many people don't ride the 13:00 train because the 17:00 isn't sold out any more?

They may sell more seats on peak days, but they haul a lot more empty seats the rest of the year.

The old problem - fifty seats at a hundred dollars, versus a hundred seats at fifty dollars, is the same total revenue, and the fixed costs of the hundred seat train may or may not be advantageous.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I bet it turns their pricing strategy on its head. Their demand management pricing made the last few seats on a full train (there are more of these than one might think) very lucrative. Now instead of a five-car train they have the opportunity to fill seven cars, but the per-seat price that achieves that may be lower. And they may have to rethink their whole time of day pricing. They may not turn away people on peak days, but they haul a lot more empty seats the rest of the year.

The old problem - fifty seats at a hundred dollars, versus a hundred seats at fifty dollars, is the same total revenue, and the fixed costs of the hundred seat train may or may not be advantageous.

- Paul

It would nice to understand the break even costs for a train and how much adding cars to them changes that.

 

[tsm1072]

It definitely isn't possible with VIA's or Kingston's budget, but you could definitely build two terminating platforms that double as storage tracks at the station. One to the North of platform 1 to the west of the station building, and one to the south of platform 2, to the east of the platform 2 tunnel. Those would allow one departure in each direction in the morning. Plenty of space for the tracks, and I'd expect not an overly expensive project, but I can't see them doing it until Alto is off the ground.

 

[smallspy]

I bet it turns their whole pricing strategy on its head. Their demand management pricing made the last few seats on a full train (there are more of these than one might think) very lucrative. Now instead of a five-car train they have the opportunity to fill seven cars, but the per-seat price that achieves that may be lower. And they may have to rethink their whole time of day pricing. When you add two coaches to the 17:00 train, how many people don't ride the 13:00 train because the 17:00 isn't sold out any more?

They may sell more seats on peak days, but they haul a lot more empty seats the rest of the year.

The old problem - fifty seats at a hundred dollars, versus a hundred seats at fifty dollars, is the same total revenue, and the fixed costs of the hundred seat train may or may not be advantageous.

- Paul

The problem is that it also increases costs, and not by an inconsequential amount. It will increase the track charges to CN, and increase staffing costs as at least another OBS member will be required (and maybe two).

The seating capacity that the trainsets were ordered with was very, very carefully arrived at.

Dan

 

[roger1818]

My definition of level of service is the same number of trains a day. The more you cut, the more irrelevant you make it. The more irrelevant it is, the less people will use it. The less people will lose it, the more reasons to cut it.

Ideally they have the same number of trains a day, but the slot times are modified to reflect that the trains will not be to service the needs of the big cities, but the smaller cities and towns.

My point is that a train that zips pass the station without stopping doesn't count as a train for that station. Looking at the current schedules, there are 5 weekday trains that don't have any stops between Oshawa and Kingston. I doubt if Kingston can drive enough demand for 5 daily express trains to/from the GTHA in addition to the stopping trains.