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innsertnamehere said:
It highlights the farce of many of the speed limit "reductions" we have seen across the City (and GTA). Speed Limits in Ontario were already below most peer jurisdictions, they are comically low now and only further feed the culture of speeding.
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This is the core problem of "Streetcars/buses/whatever should be limited to the posted speed limit like everyone else". Nobody here drives the speed limit. People drive the speed of the road minus some scare factor from cops, which usually means as fast as the road permits, but no more than +15-20kmh now. That +15-20kmh used to be +10kmh a few years back, but they dropped the speed limits everywhere by 10, so everyone adjusted!
This is not some big secret. EVERYONE knows this happens. When they put up a 40kmh sign on a 60kmh road, they fully account that most drivers will be going 10-20kmh above it. Except Streetcars, they have to follow the speed limit.
You can lament this fact or want to remove it, but it is true all the same. Also see the 400 hwys which are built for 130kmh but are posted 100kmh.
 
lastcommodore said:
This is the core problem of "Streetcars/buses/whatever should be limited to the posted speed limit like everyone else". Nobody here drives the speed limit. People drive the speed of the road minus some scare factor from cops, which usually means as fast as the road permits, but no more than +15-20kmh now. That +15-20kmh used to be +10kmh a few years back, but they dropped the speed limits everywhere by 10, so everyone adjusted!
This is not some big secret. EVERYONE knows this happens. When they put up a 40kmh sign on a 60kmh road, they fully account that most drivers will be going 10-20kmh above it. Except Streetcars, they have to follow the speed limit.
You can lament this fact or want to remove it, but it is true all the same. Also see the 400 hwys which are built for 130kmh but are posted 100kmh.
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It's part of Ontario culture now. An 80km/h road in BC does not feel the same as an 80 road in Ontario. E.g. the Sea to Sky highway.

To compound the issues you guys bring up, many traffic lights seem to be timed for 60 km/h even though the speed limit is now 40 km/h. If you drive at the speed limit, you'll hit 2 red lights within a few blocks, if you drive at 60, you'll breeze through.
 
lastcommodore said:
Except Streetcars, they have to follow the speed limit.
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You don't ride transit much, do you?

There are drivers who will drive to the limit of what is legal, and there are drivers who will drive beyond that. Operating a transit vehicle such as a bus or streetcar that has no ability to discern the roadway speed limits - and who's only limit is a software one, just like the one that exists in your own automobile - doesn't change that.

Dan
 
smallspy said:
You don't ride transit much, do you?

There are drivers who will drive to the limit of what is legal, and there are drivers who will drive beyond that. Operating a transit vehicle such as a bus or streetcar that has no ability to discern the roadway speed limits - and who's only limit is a software one, just like the one that exists in your own automobile - doesn't change that.

Dan
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I think they're saying by the nature of being slower accelerating, and the safety above speed TTC culture, in practice, it's way more common for motorists to speed on streetcar routes than streetcars.
 
smallspy said:
You don't ride transit much, do you?

There are drivers who will drive to the limit of what is legal, and there are drivers who will drive beyond that. Operating a transit vehicle such as a bus or streetcar that has no ability to discern the roadway speed limits - and who's only limit is a software one, just like the one that exists in your own automobile - doesn't change that.

Dan
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I am aware the rules on speed are more loose or more strict depending on the transit agency and level of software enforcement, but as far as I am aware the general rule among transit agencies is still that operators are supposed to obey speed limits exactly and it's considered bad practice to exceed it-- only really accepted as a blind-eye sort of thing. Also software enforcement of speeds is becoming more common nowadays, I believe Line 6's trams have them installed.

Regardless, PT doesn't operate like private transit where a mix of operator speeds is acceptable-- you need a consistent speed to travel at. If one transit operator obeys the speed limit and every operator behind him decides to go +20kmh, they can't just phase through the slow operator. You get bunching, operators arrive ahead of schedule, operators told to wait for a bit to break up bunching, and inevitably the total average speed does not change. In the case of scheduled service, it may be designed around speed limits rather than actual operator driving speeds.

As an analogue, there is a street i drive on that is practically a 2 lane highway-lite with no side-entrances or intersections for a few km. It used to be 80kmh, dropped to 70kmh a long while back, and now is tagged at 60kmh. Naturally, everyone on this road drives 80kmh and you get tailgated if you drive below 70kmh. Every now and then someone drives on that road 50-60kmh, and you can tell because you see no cars for a while followed by a looong lineup of 10-20 vehicles all tailgating someone going 50-60kmh. That's over a few km, now extend that to operators running a loop for several hours... There can be no slow operators and fast operators. Only slow operators and operators stuck behind a slow operator.
 
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lastcommodore said:
I am aware the rules on speed are more loose or more strict depending on the transit agency and level of software enforcement, but as far as I am aware the general rule among transit agencies is still that operators are supposed to obey speed limits exactly and it's considered bad practice to exceed it-- only really accepted as a blind-eye sort of thing. Also software enforcement of speeds is becoming more common nowadays, I believe Line 6's trams have them installed.
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The general rule is that "if you break the law, you will be expected to pay for it".....just like if one was driving a private vehicle. Thus, there are some operators to will drive in excess of whatever speed limits exist on the roads.

Lines 5 and 6 are a different situation, as there is a separate, freestanding system - the signalling system - which enforces a hard limit on speeds of the vehicles, most often lower than the vehicle is capable of. That doesn't exist on buses and streetcars. They are limited only by their own limiter built into the vehicle control systems.

Some agencies do have GPS monitoring of vehicle speeds, but it is just that - monitoring. It is not a hard cap

Dan
 
lastcommodore said:
This is the core problem of "Streetcars/buses/whatever should be limited to the posted speed limit like everyone else". Nobody here drives the speed limit. People drive the speed of the road minus some scare factor from cops, which usually means as fast as the road permits, but no more than +15-20kmh now. That +15-20kmh used to be +10kmh a few years back, but they dropped the speed limits everywhere by 10, so everyone adjusted!
This is not some big secret. EVERYONE knows this happens. When they put up a 40kmh sign on a 60kmh road, they fully account that most drivers will be going 10-20kmh above it. Except Streetcars, they have to follow the speed limit.
You can lament this fact or want to remove it, but it is true all the same. Also see the 400 hwys which are built for 130kmh but are posted 100kmh.
Click to expand...
Why are city planners entirely detached from reality and human behavior?

It's not quite the same but reminds me of how it's "illegal" to cross when the pedestrian sign is flashing but several downtown START the count by flashing.
 
I took the Queen car today and had an op that absolutely flew along The Queensway. We were passing traffic the whole time. Also had a King car op who gave it full power between stops and went as fast as he could (like the fastest the TTC allows) through special work. This was refreshing and needs to be the norm.
 
APTA-2048 said:
I took the Queen car today and had an op that absolutely flew along The Queensway. We were passing traffic the whole time. Also had a King car op who gave it full power between stops and went as fast as he could (like the fastest the TTC allows) through special work. This was refreshing and needs to be the norm.
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Hopefully those ops didnt get called into the office and get punished for their exceptional operating practices, as the TTC management loves to do.
 
smallspy said:
The general rule is that "if you break the law, you will be expected to pay for it".....just like if one was driving a private vehicle. Thus, there are some operators to will drive in excess of whatever speed limits exist on the roads.

Lines 5 and 6 are a different situation, as there is a separate, freestanding system - the signalling system - which enforces a hard limit on speeds of the vehicles, most often lower than the vehicle is capable of. That doesn't exist on buses and streetcars. They are limited only by their own limiter built into the vehicle control systems.

Some agencies do have GPS monitoring of vehicle speeds, but it is just that - monitoring. It is not a hard cap

Dan
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As a matter of corporate policy, the TTC has no choice but to state that its operators on roadways must obey the speed limit; that's the law. They can make policy that dictates slower speeds in certain areas but can't, as a matter of policy, make operating speeds that are higher than the posted limit. Changing the limit would be on the city, not the TTC.

Whether the dedicated ROW along the Queensway is subject to the HTA may be debated; but I suspect not.
 
lenaitch said:
As a matter of corporate policy, the TTC has no choice but to state that its operators on roadways must obey the speed limit; that's the law. They can make policy that dictates slower speeds in certain areas but can't, as a matter of policy, make operating speeds that are higher than the posted limit. Changing the limit would be on the city, not the TTC.
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Of course. And it isn't corporate policy to look the other way, either.

But it happens. And it can't be stopped without some sort of installation of nanny-state overseeing equipment to monitor every single employee in every single vehicle.

lenaitch said:
Whether the dedicated ROW along the Queensway is subject to the HTA may be debated; but I suspect not.
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As I recall, it is. Just like the center reservations of Finch West and Eglinton East.

Dan
 
From https://stevemunro.ca/2026/05/02/ttc-service-changes-effective-may-3-2026/

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