Dan416
Senior Member
The new subdivisions are very dense. But I don't really like how dense they are. They seem crowded. What's the point in having a tiny little single family home on a tiny little lot? Might as well build townhouses or condos.
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- Thread starter Glen
- Start date
The new subdivisions are very dense. But I don't really like how dense they are. They seem crowded. What's the point in having a tiny little single family home on a tiny little lot? Might as well build townhouses or condos.
Swarley
Active Member
Not at all - the ridership for 2008 was 466.7 M (http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Coupler/2009/March/466700000_riders_carried.jsp) So there were 4 million more riders in the January to May period this year compared to last year.
MisterF
Senior Member
Keep in mind that Mississauga is a lot bigger than Scarborough or North York. Population density is 3400 per sq. km for North York vs 2100 for Mississauga (2001 numbers).
Chuck
Senior Member
However, like I said before, clusters in the 416 area are randomly located along every concession road. This allows for frequent bus service to be provided on all major roads in every direction, at all times of the day. Therefore, nearly every single low density subdivision in Toronto is walking distance to a frequent bus route.
In the 905 area, most clusters are located along single corridors such as Hurontario or Yonge. Although these corridors do offer 416 style transit, the other 90% of concession roads run only through sprawl, which means no frequent bus service, which means that unlike in Toronto, 90% of subdivisions in the 905 area are miles from the nearest decent bus route.
While it is true that new subdivisions are quite dense, they are usually on the fringe of the city. This does nothing for the majority of Mississauga or Markham that were developed before the 1990s and that are not located on Yonge, Dundas, Hurtontario, or Highway 7.
This all ties into my earlier point, which is that 905 transit boomed in the past 10 years only because transit went from almost non existant to as good as possible given the current built form. Ridership will stagnate until the 905 area is filled in with apartment clusters that allow bus service to be raised to the same levels at in Toronto. Meanwhile, ridership in Toronto is booming because the base level of service is already there, and transit is now becoming good enough at all times of the day anyone can use it. For the TTC, the capacity of the subway is the only limiting factor.
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Disparishun
Active Member
First, I would add Steeles to your corridors -- some stretches are quite dense.
Second, Yonge, Bathurst, and Highway 7 -- I do not know the other two corridors in your example -- are hardly built out. In fact, they are just getting warmed up.
Third, it's not just condo buildings on these corridors. Certainly a great deal of the growth off of Bathurst has been in townhouse complexes, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. The same, albeit to a lesser extent, with Yonge -- this this will likely ramp up as Yonge itself gets going post-uncertainty.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Two points:
1. I always take TTC figures with a grain of salt, since they do not publish their methodology for gathering them and the frequency of ridership counts is known to be erratic.
2. We had a ridership increase this year - after the ridership growth strategy kicked in. I'd like to see ridership counts expressed in a load factor term too, not just total rides.
1. I always take TTC figures with a grain of salt, since they do not publish their methodology for gathering them and the frequency of ridership counts is known to be erratic.
2. We had a ridership increase this year - after the ridership growth strategy kicked in. I'd like to see ridership counts expressed in a load factor term too, not just total rides.
kettal
Banned
The worlds worst detached home is better than the best townhouse, didn't you know?
doady
Senior Member
Eglinton, Steeles, Queen, Burhamthorpe, Bloor, Dixie, Erin Mills, Kennedy all have good bus service also. And there is no reason they can't have better service.
Remember, many 905 routes operate at a much higher cost-recovery than they would if they were operated by the TTC. Hurontario and Yonge are most efficient bus routes in the GTA, not any TTC route. It is the profit from its subway operations that allowed Toronto to develop such a high level of bus service in the suburbs, not necessary the density.
rbt
Senior Member
The numbers are not directly comparable as they are calculated using different methodologies.
I'm also fairly certain the per route numbers I've seen recently included an approximation of capital costs like the purchase of the bus or build of streetcar equipment.
Pretty sure the subway would not fare well if you include capital into its calculation as well. Doubly so if you toss in financing or opportunity cost.
That said, public transit in North America is about increasing sales, income tax, and property tax revenues. Canada seems to do quite well at getting an indirect return on their transit investment.
Chuck
Senior Member
The ONLY reason why most 905 transit routes have higher cost recovery rates than TTC bus routes is because 905 bus routes don't have a free transfer to the subway. For 905 bus routes that connect to the subway, you not only pay a fare in the morning when you board at your local stop, you also pay a fare to board the bus after getting off the subway on the way home. However, for TTC bus routes, your fare only goes toward that bus route when you board in the morning. On the way home, your fare is counted toward the subway.
For 905 bus routes that connect to the subway, the revenue figures must be cut in half in order to level the playing field with TTC bus routes. Or you can double the recovery rates for TTC bus routes to match the scenario in the 905 area. Meanwhile, 905 bus routes that don't connect to the subway, particularly those in York Region, generally have a fare recovery less than 15% which is almost unheard of for the TTC.
For 905 bus routes that connect to the subway, the revenue figures must be cut in half in order to level the playing field with TTC bus routes. Or you can double the recovery rates for TTC bus routes to match the scenario in the 905 area. Meanwhile, 905 bus routes that don't connect to the subway, particularly those in York Region, generally have a fare recovery less than 15% which is almost unheard of for the TTC.
GenerationW
Senior Member
Isn't that one more reason to concentrate on building more sub......ah never mind.
doady
Senior Member
Last I checked, route 19 did not connect to the subway, and it allowed free transfers from Brampton Transit. None of the TTC routes allow free transfers to other systems, and they still have lower cost recovery.
It is the subway that allowed Toronto to develop and support and high level of suburban bus service. Also remember that support for transit expansion and operations was much higher when the 416 suburbs were built and is almost non-existent now that the 905 is trying to expand.
It also took many years for the ridership in the TTC suburban routes to build up, they all started off with really bad service as well. And despite the lack of funding you can see the same building up of ridership on many older 905 corridors now, such as Dixie and Steeles, which saw ridership increase by 3 times and 5 times respectively between 1996 and 2006.