[Abdullah77]

But Milton and Sarnia are 2 completely different towns that are 2.5 hours apart. We're not talking about 2 isolated towns, we're talking about a continuous and integrated metro area, where the line between 1 municipality and another is usually completely arbitrary.

Tell me, where is the Toronto/York Region border?
View attachment 653013
Unless you're someone who knows Toronto's layout in and out, and is able to identify Steeles Avenue on a map, there is absolutely nothing that indicates that Steeles is a municipal border, or that north and south of that street are somehow to completely separate cities with separate interests and needs. To any layman, these two areas look exactly the same, are part of the same city. As such the idea that transit planning and operation should be handled at a regional level that transcends arbitrary municipal borders should frankly be common sense. This isn't the 80s anymore, the world doesn't end at Steeles Avenue. There are millions of people that live outside the city of Toronto, commute to Toronto on a daily (or many times per week) basis, rely on city services, and use city transportation especially the TTC. There are many Mississauga residents that use Line 2, and there are many, and I mean MANY York Region residents that use Line 1 to commute to work daily. This idea that TTC and especially the subway only exists to serve Toronto residents is outdated, and hasn't been true for 3-4 decades now.

So tired of this "Steeles-is-the-end-of-the-known-world" mindset on UT. Transit seems to be the only file where people get up in arms over service crossing the boundary. Workers, students, cars, trucks, drunks, and leisurists cross the artificial boundary everyday without even thinking about it. But transit service seems to be a line for some people, where they think it's blasphemy for the subway to go outside the legally set boundaries of CoT.

 

[APTA-2048]

So tired of this "Steeles-is-the-end-of-the-known-world" mindset on UT. Transit seems to be the only file where people get up in arms over service crossing the boundary. Workers, students, cars, trucks, drunks, and leisurists cross the artificial boundary everyday without even thinking about it. But transit service seems to be a line for some people, where they think it's blasphemy for the subway to go outside the legally set boundaries of CoT.

What people have a problem with is extending the subway into York Region while there are still many parts of Toronto without rapid transit. On top of that, York Region doesn’t help pay for operations of the subway.

Oh and on top of that, York Region seems to see higher order public transit as a status symbol more than anything else.

 

[T3G]

But Milton and Sarnia are 2 completely different towns that are 2.5 hours apart. We're not talking about 2 isolated towns, we're talking about a continuous and integrated metro area, where the line between 1 municipality and another is usually completely arbitrary.

Tell me, where is the Toronto/York Region border?
View attachment 653013
Unless you're someone who knows Toronto's layout in and out, and is able to identify Steeles Avenue on a map, there is absolutely nothing that indicates that Steeles is a municipal border, or that north and south of that street are somehow to completely separate cities with separate interests and needs. To any layman, these two areas look exactly the same, are part of the same city. As such the idea that transit planning and operation should be handled at a regional level that transcends arbitrary municipal borders should frankly be common sense. This isn't the 80s anymore, the world doesn't end at Steeles Avenue. There are millions of people that live outside the city of Toronto, commute to Toronto on a daily (or many times per week) basis, rely on city services, and use city transportation especially the TTC. There are many Mississauga residents that use Line 2, and there are many, and I mean MANY York Region residents that use Line 1 to commute to work daily. This idea that TTC and especially the subway only exists to serve Toronto residents is outdated, and hasn't been true for 3-4 decades now.

I was responding to a post which said that Toronto was wrong for putting its own needs first. That argument is inherently problematic because the suburban communities benefit a lot more from cross border transit than do Torontonians. if the suburban communities want cross border transit, it needs to fall to them to advocate for it, and pay for their fair share of it; there is no reason to slam Torontonians for not being interested in service to the suburbs and prioritizing projects built within the city.

Toronto is the primate city - all other communities surrounding it must conform to that reality, rather than expecting Toronto to worry about the fine grained details of everyone else's affairs.

 

[81-717]

So tired of this "Steeles-is-the-end-of-the-known-world" mindset on UT.

Gotta give it to them for being generous though, far too many out there still have the "Bloor is the end of the known world" mindset.

 

[Jonny5]

Gotta give it to them for being generous though, far too many out there still have the "Bloor is the end of the known world" mindset.

What is this "Bloor" you speak of? Is it in the wyldes north of the Carlton Forest?
Sincerely,
Corktown Resident

 

[Mihairokov]

Yeah if it's north of College it may as well be Sudbury

 

[Amare]

What people have a problem with is extending the subway into York Region while there are still many parts of Toronto without rapid transit. On top of that, York Region doesn’t help pay for operations of the subway.

Oh and on top of that, York Region seems to see higher order public transit as a status symbol more than anything else.

Exactly this. York Region cant even properly increase frequencies on their bus routes enough to so it's actually a competent and at least semi-reliable transit service, while VIVA remains to be a skeletal rapid transit service which isnt even utilized anywhere near to it's full potential.

But yet York Region is constantly the ones demanding for the subway to be extended because they "deserve rapid transit".

Frankly it's pretty comical that they're asking for billions to be spent on their dream subway, while they cant even spend millions to improve local service in the region. Meanwhile Torontonians have to deal with routes in many areas of the city that are rammed up to capacity with no improvements in sight, and additional buses can only do so much to address the capacity issues.

 

[ARG1]

Exactly this. York Region cant even properly increase frequencies on their bus routes enough to so it's actually a competent and at least semi-reliable transit service, while VIVA remains to be a skeletal rapid transit service which isnt even utilized anywhere near to it's full potential.

But yet York Region is constantly the ones demanding for the subway to be extended because they "deserve rapid transit".

Frankly it's pretty comical that they're asking for billions to be spent on their dream subway, while they cant even spend millions to improve local service in the region. Meanwhile Torontonians have to deal with routes in many areas of the city that are rammed up to capacity with no improvements in sight, and additional buses can only do so much to address the capacity issues.

Its interesting to write this when the section of Viva Blue that the subway is replacing runs every 7m all day (and that's just if you include Viva Blue, not including the half dozen other routes that share that corridor, which in practice looks more like 3-4m headways midday). I can agree that in general that York Region probably doesn't "deserve" subways given how shoddy the bus service is, however Yonge Street between Steeles and Highway 7 is one massive exception (and yes, I do mean to imply that the York Region section of the TYSSE wasn't strictly necessary). I think it also says a lot that Toronto leadership has always been adamant that the DRL/OL is a necessity before the YNSE happens. You'd think if the YNSE was a political vanity project replacing a skeletal bus service that surely it wouldn't cause significant problems for Line 1 capacity right?

 

[81-717]

however Yonge Street between Steeles and Highway 7 is one massive exception (and yes, I do mean to imply that the York Region section of the TYSSE wasn't strictly necessary)

However, Wonderland (a logical future "final destination") is located on the TYSSE alignment, not YNSE.

I think it also says a lot that Toronto leadership has always been adamant that the DRL/OL is a necessity before the YNSE happens. You'd think if the YNSE was a political vanity project replacing a skeletal bus service that surely it wouldn't cause significant problems for Line 1 capacity right?

Interesting that no such constraints affected TYSSE. Yes that side may have less ridership than the Yonge side, but you'd think it'd still contribute to increased usage of that side to get dt. Though again, apparently only a minority of TYSSE/YNSE users would actually be going all the way dt.

 

[ARG1]

However, Wonderland (a logical future "final destination") is located on the TYSSE alignment, not YNSE.

Tbh, unless you use the subway extension as an excuse to redevelop the Wonderland Parking lots, I don't see how it would be reasonable to extend the subway to serve a seasonal destination. Maybe you could argue that Cortellucci Hospital could be a counterbalance destination to warrant an extension, and maybe Vaughan Mills? However I'd still rank the priority to be incredibly low.

 

[Steve X]

Subways for within York Region travels is a non-starter. They'll spend more money maintaining it than being enough economical benefits. Everything is just too far apart and can't be located on one line. If you have to take a bus to the subway to take another bus, that's enough of a turnoff to justify not building it.

Riding the subway to Wonderland is such a joke. Weekdays usage would be near zero. Large families will definitely avoid transit Especially if each child had to pay a seperate fare (YRT doesn't have free under 12). I don't see many families would pay $20+ on transit and wait for infrequent service at night when they leave.

I rather see them extend the subway into Mississauga than further into Vaughan.

 

[picard102]

I was responding to a post which said that Toronto was wrong for putting its own needs first. That argument is inherently problematic because the suburban communities benefit a lot more from cross border transit than do Torontonians. if the suburban communities want cross border transit, it needs to fall to them to advocate for it, and pay for their fair share of it; there is no reason to slam Torontonians for not being interested in service to the suburbs and prioritizing projects built within the city.

Toronto is the primate city - all other communities surrounding it must conform to that reality, rather than expecting Toronto to worry about the fine grained details of everyone else's affairs.

Toronto benefits by removing vehicles from it's streets, and freeing up commuter lots inside Toronto for development.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I rather see them extend the subway into Mississauga than further into Vaughan.

I don't even want that - I'd rather have better GO service with good connection to the local transit network - because at some point the subway just isn't all that fast..

AoD

 

[turbanplanner]

I don't even want that - I'd rather have better GO service with good connection to the local transit network - because at some point the subway just isn't all that fast..

AoD

The subway would be slower but if you're anywhere north of the lakeshore the subway would likely be faster as you're not spending time going up and down.

 

[Mihairokov]

They probably have some sort of national standard. We can't even get systems in the same city to adopt a uniform signage standard.(heck, some can't even adopt a uniform signage standard intra-system).

AoD

Bringing this here so it's probably more relevant.

All of the standards are nationwide, so all of the cars are sourced from one of two companies, and they all have similar designs and builds. The stations are all designed the same so they have the same requirements on escalators, elevators, platform doors, etc. The one major thing that isn't national standard is the info boards and video boards inside of the cars which indicate next steps and provide safety messaging, and the platform video boards which all vary. For example:

Spoiler: China Metro Video Boards and Info

Some Shanghai Metro platforms and trains don't have video boards at all.

Shanghai Metro platform video board, times are for next train and third train arriving. Most Chinese Metro headways are 5minutes rush and 7minutes off.

Shanghai Metro has a ferry system which traverses the river in a number of places, providing connections mainly for moped drivers who cannot cross on large bridges or tunnels, or for tourists travelling between the Bund and Lujiazui. Because this is included in the Metro system the same charge is applied as a subway or bus (roughly $0.50-0.70, depending on the trip). Including this as it relates to Toronto for no reason whatsoever.

Speaking of Lujiazui!

I don't think i've ever seen so much greenspace in a "CBD" before. Something that both China and Japan do well, and something that we should definitely do more of, is raised pedestrian bridges to cross busy intersections and avenues. Where's my pedestrian bridge to cross Lakeshore?

Hangzhou Metro, station exit info, indicating which car you're in and which stair/escalator you're closest to, and which is ideal for which exit.

Hangzhou Metro indicates stations which are not open yet:

Wuhan Metro platform video boards, like all others, indicate time for the next train and the train after that.

Wuhan Metro in-car board is more busy and difficult to read at first glance.

Most metro systems will indicate the level of air conditioning on subway cars. In Harbin, they provide an indication of how busy the cars are and time of arrival for next train, second train, and third train.

Pointy trains at Beijing North Station. Don't think we have these.

Also checked out the Wuhan hanging monorail, which at this point is just showing off for the sake of showing off.

As with anything, I think we don't realize what we do or don't have until we see other systems and how they're doing things. In this regard I think TTC stacks up well against North American (and some European) systems, where the expectation for service seems to be the same. It's not a huge jump to go from TTC to NY, outside of the fact that the NY system is simply much larger, as the stations and trains and everything are fairly similar. It's when you go to Asia, at least from my impression this trip, that the quality and expectation raises substantially, and we really get a chance to see what we're lacking in our public infrastructure. Obviously there are going to be things that we cannot match on, like building large, widescale projects and lines, but on things like wayfinding, information, and general QOL I think we should strive to at least remain somewhat comparable. Last night I climbed the stairs out of King Station and had to slosh around through standing water as the drains on the stairs weren't draining, whereas in China they have staff putting out carpets and mats at station entrances on rainy days so people don't trail water inside...

Also, what happened to Barney Beaver? Every metro should have a cute mascot.