[T3G]

Just one recent example of a coordination game produced by having distinct agencies: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...way-extension-m-s-metrolinx.7404/post-2223376

Every time a transit project crosses agency boundaries, there are significant costs (time and capital) imposed by these coordination games.

What coordination issue does this represent? The TTC had a perfectly reasonable request and Metrolinx told them to kick rocks. This neither constitutes an issue of two local agencies infighting, nor does it make a particularly compelling case for Metrolinx being the good guys who we should leave in charge of everything.

But other than the limited instances of cross border transit causing less infighting, I see no benefit to be had. The larger an area of focus, the less likely it will be that they will be able to focus on any particular local issue, in the same way that it would be unfeasible for the federal government to manage roadworks out in Puslinch. That's the whole idea behind decentralization. Merging everything into Metrolinx would generate limited benefits in extremely limited circumstances, and cause trouble in many more.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

What coordination issue does this represent? The TTC had a perfectly reasonable request and Metrolinx told them to kick rocks. This neither constitutes an issue of two local agencies infighting, nor does it make a particularly compelling case for Metrolinx being the good guys who we should leave in charge of everything.

But other than the limited instances of cross border transit causing less infighting, I see no benefit to be had. The larger an area of focus, the less likely it will be that they will be able to focus on any particular local issue, in the same way that it would be unfeasible for the federal government to manage roadworks out in Puslinch. That's the whole idea behind decentralization. Merging everything into Metrolinx would generate limited benefits in extremely limited circumstances, and cause trouble in many more.

Again, taking Metro Vancouver’s Translink as an example, local needs are still really well met, and it’s arguably the best run system in North America. There are certain organizational economies of scale to be had with the approach.

But I understand the TTC has heritage value and there is massive distrust in Metrolinx caused by its abhorrent management of several projects. Those two factors alone probably mean true unification will never happen.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

To get back on topic: I’m incredibly confused. The renders here suggest that the Scarborough subway extension is going to follow Metrolinx standards rather than TTC standards.

Here's what Toronto's next subway stations will look like

Metrolinx has revealed more details about the look of Toronto's next three subway stations, all currently under construction for the Scarborough Subw…

www.blogto.com

A single line is going to consist of 2 completely different standards????

Again, why on earth is the TTC even bothering developing its own wayfinding system?? Please for the love of god just adopt MX standards.

 

[DSCToronto]

Again, taking Metro Vancouver’s Translink as an example, local needs are still really well met, and it’s arguably the best run system in North America. There are certain organizational economies of scale to be had with the approach.

But I understand the TTC has heritage value and there is massive distrust in Metrolinx caused by its abhorrent management of several projects. Those two factors alone probably mean true unification will never happen.

They also really serve two quite different types of travel. TTC (and other municipal transit systems) serve 'the last mile' while Metrolinx/GO serves the inter-city market. Of course, many customers use a local transit service at both ends of an 'inter-city' trip and it is here that you need coordination and cooperation. Metrolinx is also run by a Board who are even less connected to or aware of the needs of their existing clients than the TTC Board!

 

[6ixGod]

To get back on topic: I’m incredibly confused. The renders here suggest that the Scarborough subway extension is going to follow Metrolinx standards rather than TTC standards.

Here's what Toronto's next subway stations will look like

Metrolinx has revealed more details about the look of Toronto's next three subway stations, all currently under construction for the Scarborough Subw…

www.blogto.com

A single line is going to consist of 2 completely different standards????

Again, why on earth is the TTC even bothering developing its own wayfinding system?? Please for the love of god just adopt MX standards.

Yikes

 

[nfitz]

A single line is going to consist of 2 completely different standards????

Other than the 5-station Line 4, where is this subway line that currently has one consistent signage standard?

 

[6ixGod]

To get back on topic: I’m incredibly confused. The renders here suggest that the Scarborough subway extension is going to follow Metrolinx standards rather than TTC standards.

Here's what Toronto's next subway stations will look like

Metrolinx has revealed more details about the look of Toronto's next three subway stations, all currently under construction for the Scarborough Subw…

www.blogto.com

A single line is going to consist of 2 completely different standards????

Again, why on earth is the TTC even bothering developing its own wayfinding system?? Please for the love of god just adopt MX standards.

From whatever I’ve read so far, it appears Metrolinx wayfinding standard will be the future for all regional transport agencies.

Wayfinding Design Standard | Universal Design & Wayfinding

Design and implementation standards for Regional Transit Wayfinding System.

www.metrolinx.com

Wayfinding Design Standard | Universal Design & Wayfinding

Design and implementation standards for Regional Transit Wayfinding System.

www.metrolinx.com

Page 108 onwards makes this very clear.

HOWEVER, page 242 mentions something interesting.

 

[UntitledCyclist]

Hi, I'm new to this thread, but there are so many things I find odd or frustrating with TTC wayfinding and route signage I wanted to share and ask about a couple:

32 Eglinton West buses run between Renforth & Eglinton Station. However on Eglinton W near Bathurst, where proper bus stop signage exists (many are temp signs), most seem to have 34 on them. I believe this was a recent update and possibly related to a route change on Eglinton once the ECLRT opens. I know the LRT line is a quagmire, but jow did it make sense to change the route signs months (or possibly years) before this supposed route change occurs? I have seen many other examples of incorrect route numbers at bus stops, so I I guess this is nothing special – but usually I assume it's the opposite issue of the TTC changing a route number and not getting around to changing signage.

At Lawrence West station recently, I was transferring from Line 1 to a 52 Lawrence West EB bus. Coming up from the subway platform all "Bus" signs point to the bus loop at the back of the station, the opposite way from the exit to Lawrence W. While looking for the right bay for my bus, I was surprised when it pulled up on the street on Lawrence, outside the entrance. It seems EB buses (only) board out on the street, but there are no obvious signs small or large saying this. I don't know if this is a permanent setup (some messy info here) but why would there be no wayfinding to let riders know that a key bus route is out on the street, rather than in the bus bay?

I realize there are probably 1000s of such missing, incorrect or out of date signs throughout the system. One can only imagine the cumulative confusion, time loss and inconvenience this creates each day.

 

[transitthinker]

All of the bus poles on Eglinton were replaced with post opening service for Line 5 last fall. Unfortunately they didn't put up temporary signs of the current routes.

As for Lawrence, I've been on WB 52's that stop in the station but I've also seen them stop on street so not too sure about that

 

[UntitledCyclist]

All of the bus poles on Eglinton were replaced with post opening service for Line 5 last fall. Unfortunately they didn't put up temporary signs of the current routes.

As for Lawrence, I've been on WB 52's that stop in the station but I've also seen them stop on street so not too sure about that

Thanks. Did anyone still think the Line 5 was opening soon last fall?

This pic was snapped on Eglinton WB at Old Forest Hill Rd. just to show the confusion. The 33 is accurate, for the Forest Hill bus that runs on Eglinton from Spadina to Bathurst. The 34 is... not yet. And the 32 is not shown, even though almost all the buses that stop here are 32s.

Not to get too worked up, but the lack of accurate signage feels actively hostile to riders. I do feel some sympathy for agencies and departments trying to find things to do to prep for the LRT while it's future is in limbo. But changing these signs should have been the last thing TTC did.

View attachment 671661

 

[Steve X]

Thanks. Did anyone still think the Line 5 was opening soon last fall?

This pic was snapped on Eglinton WB at Old Forest Hill Rd. just to show the confusion. The 33 is accurate, for the Forest Hill bus that runs on Eglinton from Spadina to Bathurst. The 34 is... not yet. And the 32 is not shown, even though almost all the buses that stop here are 32s.

Not to get too worked up, but the lack of accurate signage feels actively hostile to riders. I do feel some sympathy for agencies and departments trying to find things to do to prep for the LRT while it's future is in limbo. But changing these signs should have been the last thing TTC did.

View attachment 671661

A decade ago, none of the bus stops have numbers on them. Yet everyone carried on. It’s not the end of the world. It would be nice to have a dedicated caring team handling this tho

 

[DSCToronto]

A decade ago, none of the bus stops have numbers on them. Yet everyone carried on. It’s not the end of the world. It would be nice to have a dedicated caring team handling this tho

Frankly, transit operators all over the world seem to manage to put up and maintain accurate STOP signage with route numbers for decade and, from a visitor experience, they seem to be accurate. Here the TTC finally moved into the 21st century about a decade ago when they finally added route numbers to the stop signs but then appeared to make no effort to have a team available to change signage when route numbers or routes changed. @smallspy reported recently that they had FINALLY established a STOP SIGNAGE team but they are really swimming against the current.

There are still signs all over St Lawrence (and elsewhere?) marking the 14x express routes that were cancelled during covid and are now never spoken of and have vanished from the TTC website and the 503 route still has paper signage on Wellington because they removed the original 'permanent' signage when the route was moved to King and seem to have lost it. Even temporary route signs like the 121 diversion stops on Front are never removed when the temporary diversion ends. Frankly, putting up and removing stop signage is an unskilled job that could be done by a (tall) 10-year old if they were properly managed. Unfortunately the TTC is organised in silos so nobody in route planning seems to think of telling the Stop Team to change the signage or probably even knows that there iS a STOP SIGNAGE team!

 

[Amare]

Frankly, transit operators all over the world seem to manage to put up and maintain accurate STOP signage with route numbers for decade and, from a visitor experience, they seem to be accurate. Here the TTC finally moved into the 21st century about a decade ago when they finally added route numbers to the stop signs but then appeared to make no effort to have a team available to change signage when route numbers or routes changed. @smallspy reported recently that they had FINALLY established a STOP SIGNAGE team but they are really swimming against the current.

There are still signs all over St Lawrence (and elsewhere?) marking the 14x express routes that were cancelled during covid and are now never spoken of and have vanished from the TTC website and the 503 route still has paper signage on Wellington because they removed the original 'permanent' signage when the route was moved to King and seem to have lost it. Even temporary route signs like the 121 diversion stops on Front are never removed when the temporary diversion ends. Frankly, putting up and removing stop signage is an unskilled job that could be done by a (tall) 10-year old if they were properly managed. Unfortunately the TTC is organised in silos so nobody in route planning seems to think of telling the Stop Team to change the signage or probably even knows that there iS a STOP SIGNAGE team!

The funny thing is, i've seen the TTC place new stop signage up with brand new routes up this year and on those very new signs, they still bothered to include the 14X express routes!

Typically I would write a scathing lashing at something like this, but there's so many things wrong with the TTC that i'll hold my tongue on this.

 

[UntitledCyclist]

A decade ago, none of the bus stops have numbers on them. Yet everyone carried on. It’s not the end of the world. It would be nice to have a dedicated caring team handling this tho

That's good to know, but, given this is a forum on TTC signage and wayfinding, it seems odd to want to excuse or justify the historical lack of same by saying "meh, it was fine without!" And once they made the shift to having route signs on bus stops, seems to me it is incumbent on TTC to keep them accurate and maintained. Otherwise it is actually worse and more confusing than having nothing at all.