[nfitz]

On cost......... I found an FOI for the cost of installation on the Elizabeth Line retrofit in London, UK. Converting to Dollars, and with an inflation adjustment it comes in at well less than 1/2 the number proposed here.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0678-2223

What do you mean by retrofit?

I was there just after the line opened. The doors were at the new stations from day 1. I didn't see ANY doors at old above-ground stations that weren't new. (and I don't think that there were any reused below ground stations).

As the biggest cost is rebuilding the platforms to support the weight of the doors, then if their doors cost half of hours - they sound more expensive, not cheaper.

 

[Northern Light]

What do you mean by retrofit? I was there just after the line opened. The doors were at the new stations from day 1. I didn't see ANY doors at old above-ground stations that weren't new. (and I don't think that there were any reused below ground stations).

Fair point, I haven't been to London in the last decade.

And I had googled retrofit.

So I made an assumption, perhaps erroneous.

As the biggest cost is rebuilding the platforms to support the weight of the doors, then if their doors cost half of hours - they sound more expensive, not cheaper.

That's certainly one of the big costs, I suspect ventilation is likely another large one.

 

[Northern Light]

Platform Edge Doors are referred to the new Strategic Planning Ctte of the TTC.

There is a request for further information to be brought forward at that time.

This doesn't spike it, nor does it save it, it punts the decision.

If Strategic Planning Ctte recommends moving forward, it will come back to a future TTC meeting likely in Sept or Oct.

 

[Coolibop]

This is at the Commission as I type.

An interesting stat just came up...........this year, 2025, to-date (so about six months in)....218 delays related to unauthorized person at track level. More than 1 a day.

Jamaal also pointed he gets a priority 1 (suicide) email every 2 weeks or so.

 

[Richard White]

Platform Edge Doors are referred to the new Strategic Planning Ctte of the TTC.

There is a request for further information to be brought forward at that time.

This doesn't spike it, nor does it save it, it punts the decision.

If Strategic Planning Ctte recommends moving forward, it will come back to a future TTC meeting likely in Sept or Oct.

The report on the report?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

What do you mean by retrofit?

I was there just after the line opened. The doors were at the new stations from day 1. I didn't see ANY doors at old above-ground stations that weren't new. (and I don't think that there were any reused below ground stations).

As the biggest cost is rebuilding the platforms to support the weight of the doors, then if their doors cost half of hours - they sound more expensive, not cheaper.

There is also the cost of so-called private-sector consultants having to put in their 2¢, I mean $2 in. Something that transit agencies outside North America don't spend on.

 

[nfitz]

That's certainly one of the big costs, I suspect ventilation is likely another large one.

Yes, it would be. And we can see how much they've already spent on that (and fire exits). Lighting would mostly have to be completely replaced as well, as on most platforms it's near the platform edge! Which impacts the ceiling significantly at some stations.

And good gosh, what about the fire exits. Worst comes to worst, right now, you can pull the breaker and run down the tunnel. What happens if there's a fire on the platform, with the doors closed, if the fire is between you and the exit (gosh, I've not even thought of that one before.

Typical Lighting

 

[Richard White]

And good gosh, what about the fire exits. Worst comes to worst, right now, you can pull the breaker and run down the tunnel.

Bad idea.

Smoke travels into tunnels. This happened when the Garbage train burned at Old Mill.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Good gosh, what about the fire exits. Worst comes to worst, right now, you can pull the breaker and run down the tunnel. What happens if there's a fire on the platform, with the doors closed, if the fire is between you and the exit (gosh, I've not even thought of that one before.

There are references to emergencies scenarios - long and short of it is there are doors at the end of the platform that can be opened (p. 225, you can also see them in the various plans in the document).

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ttc/bgrd/backgroundfile-256301.pdf

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Bad idea.

Smoke travels into tunnels. This happened when the Garbage train burned at Old Mill.

Good point

I'd say that not having a fire exit near the end of the platform is just a bad idea in general. But I don't know what code would be now compared to this; and a big change like this would trigger having to update the station from the 1940s-1970s fire code to the 2020s fire code. Something else they've been spending a fortune on for decades (all the Second Exits that they were/are doing).

Still, I'd sooner take my chances running down the tunnel (especially when you can often see the next station) than running through flame.

The more I think about this, the more expensive it gets ...

There are references to emergencies scenarios - long and short of it is there are doors at the end of the platform that can be opened (p. 225, you can also see them in the various plans in the document).

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ttc/bgrd/backgroundfile-256301.pdf

Excellent find! And credit to you for getting to page 225 - I'd long since given up by then.

Which does raise the question of if you can use the (presumably signed) emergency exit on to the tracks at the end of the platform. What's to stop those wanting to go into the tunnel from doing so. And even those who are suicidal (though one would hope most of them are not-thinking enough to pull that off).

Here's that section - they have thought this out well! It hasn't been just Metrolinxed out of nowhere!

 

[T3G]

What is the logic behind using a super busy station like Dundas as a prototype rather than testing out the technology on a station where a full scale closure would cause considerably less disruption, like, say, Chester?

 

[Northern Light]

What is the logic behind using a super busy station like Dundas as a prototype rather than testing out the technology on a station where a full scale closure would cause considerably less disruption, like, say, Chester?

Good question. For which I currently lack a compelling answer. Note that the consultant report specifically recommended lower traffic stations first to minimize customer disruption and allow 'learnings' before moving on to busy stations.

Staff went against the consultant report in picking Dundas.

 

[Northern Light]

Steve Munro has done his customary deep diving on this subject, its worth a read:

TTC Subway Platform Edge Door Study

At its meeting on June 23, the TTC Board considered a report on platform doors for its subway system: Platform Edge Doors Study – Outcome of Feasibility and Business Case Studies Platform Edg…

stevemunro.ca

 

[cplchanb]

My bet on the obscene cost estimates is that contractors are trying to milk out whatever they can from the govt knowing full well its going to be essentially a blank check for them. Also there's simply not enough expertise available here to keep coats low. This is what happens when infrastructure is left stuck in the 1980s with no incremental improvements until its absolutely necessary to stave off equipment breakdown

 

[Mihairokov]

What is the logic behind using a super busy station like Dundas as a prototype rather than testing out the technology on a station where a full scale closure would cause considerably less disruption, like, say, Chester?

I assume because they want a "worst-case" or highest traffic scenario to pilot on. If nobody uses Chester it's tough to say how they would handle large groups of people or crowd crushes.

Completely ridiculous that we're looking at a 20-year timeline for a system-wide implementation. We're talking about a 2050 completion for this.