[Rainforest]

There's been some chatter on the Finch West LRT thread about if/how it should be extended east to serve Seneca College. I propose an network alternative to provide service to Scarborough at a much better value than what has been proposed officially.

1) Line 4 would curve upwards east of Fairview Mall, running elevated in the 404 ROW, and terminating in a new station on Seneca College campus. This line is really just too expensive to bring all the way into Scarborough and this is a cheap option to get great transit service to Seneca without extending the Finch LRT all the way east.
2) Assuming the Ontario Line north extension to Don Mills station is a no brainer, curve the line east along Sheppard to Agincourt GO in an elevated alignment. The OL is just much cheaper per km to build-out over long distances compared to TTC-spec'd subway and more flexible with curves. The OL would then run elevated along the Stoufville GO ROW and existing SRT ROW to reach STC. I see this line running elevated from there on Progress Ave over to Centennial College, along the 401 ROW, then up Neilson Rd to Malvern Centre, replacing the last leg of the planned ECLRT East extension. The cost of this OL extension from Don Mills to Malvern would probably cost the same as extending Line 4 to McCowan and serve waay more trip generators.
3) Build out the Finch East RapidTO line (BRT) from Yonge to Malvern Centre.
4) (Too late but...) Trim the Line 2 Scarborough extension back to STC instead of Sheppard/McCowan and use the budget savings to pay for Item 1).

View attachment 370185

An interesting concept, but it will be difficult to bring Line 4 elevated into the 404 corridor. The Don Mills station is very deep, and is located east of Don Mills. It would need to rise very sharply, as well as make a sharp turn.

IMO, it is easier to convert the Sheppard subway to OL type technology, and then extend it east the way you pictured. If the Ontario line comes from the south, you will have a choice of interlining the two or keeping them as two separate lines.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Why elevate it? Aren't most issues the subways have in winter occur where they run above ground?

It's significantly cheaper to build. We could do cut-and-cover tunneling, or we could cover the elevated structure, and we'd get enormous cost savings without real harm.

 

[micheal_can]

An interesting concept, but it will be difficult to bring Line 4 elevated into the 404 corridor. The Don Mills station is very deep, and is located east of Don Mills. It would need to rise very sharply, as well as make a sharp turn.

IMO, it is easier to convert the Sheppard subway to OL type technology, and then extend it east the way you pictured. If the Ontario line comes from the south, you will have a choice of interlining the two or keeping them as two separate lines.

Look at the mess of the SRT or the Ottawa LRT to say why doing this is a very bad idea. Keep what it is and extended it west to the Airport and east at least to the STC. Then, from there either Line 2 or 4, or both interlined continue east to Pickering eventually. That would make Line 4 as a subway useful.

It's significantly cheaper to build. We could do cut-and-cover tunneling, or we could cover the elevated structure, and we'd get enormous cost savings without real harm.

Short term gains for long term pains or short term pains for long term gains?

 

[DirectionNorth]

Short term gains for long term pains or short term pains for long term gains?

What kind of "pain" does it create? I am genuinely curious.

More money for other projects (including transit)? Faster build times? More convenient for users?

 

[micheal_can]

What kind of "pain" does it create? I am genuinely curious.

More money for other projects (including transit)? Faster build times? More convenient for users?

Every year, we hear how the subway isn't running as good due to the weather. So, the long term pain is the fact that now this line too will have those issues. Why not instead spend the money "now" so that later, the line runs well regardless of weather conditions.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Every year, we hear how the subway isn't running as good due to the weather. So, the long term pain is the fact that now this line too will have those issues. Why not instead spend the money "now" so that later, the line runs well regardless of weather conditions.

Then how about cut-and-cover tunneling, which doesn't expose the line to the weather? Or we could install a cover for an elevated line?

 

[micheal_can]

Then how about cut-and-cover tunneling, which doesn't expose the line to the weather? Or we could install a cover for an elevated line?

Either of those work. However, once you start to do either, a bored tunnel becomes the better way to minimize affects to the businesses.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Either of those work. However, once you start to do either, a bored tunnel becomes the better way to minimize affects to the businesses.

At what cost? What kind of "business" is there on Sheppard Ave that is worth spending an extra $500 million or $1 billion to "protect"? EWLRT would save $1.2 billion by street running, which includes operation costs.

A cut-and-cover tunnel, at the cost of $500 million per km, would save us about $2.5 billion dollars if we cut-and-covered the 5 km from Don Mills to Agincourt. It would be cheaper to compensate each business along the route.

 

[micheal_can]

At what cost? What kind of "business" is there on Sheppard Ave that is worth spending an extra $500 million or $1 billion to "protect"? EWLRT would save $1.2 billion by street running, which includes operation costs.

A cut-and-cover tunnel, at the cost of $500 million per km, would save us about $2.5 billion dollars if we cut-and-covered the 5 km from Don Mills to Agincourt. It would be cheaper to compensate each business along the route.

Right now, you may be correct, but, as we have been seeing, lots of businesses are failing and shutting down. Why give them one more challenge? However, no one is saying to build the line now, or even in the next 5 years. Maybe by then things will change and throw another wrench into the plans. It should not be just about the cheapest option.

 

[11th]

At what cost? What kind of "business" is there on Sheppard Ave that is worth spending an extra $500 million or $1 billion to "protect"? EWLRT would save $1.2 billion by street running, which includes operation costs.

A cut-and-cover tunnel, at the cost of $500 million per km, would save us about $2.5 billion dollars if we cut-and-covered the 5 km from Don Mills to Agincourt. It would be cheaper to compensate each business along the route.

I think the tunnel needs to be bored to cross the 404 regardless. The cut-and-covered section may just be from Victoria Park to Agincourt or McCowan.

 

[micheal_can]

I think the tunnel needs to be bored to cross the 404 regardless. The cut-and-covered section may just be from Victoria Park to Agincourt or McCowan.

Wouldn't switching methods of digging cause the costs to go up?

 

[44 North]

I think the tunnel needs to be bored to cross the 404 regardless. The cut-and-covered section may just be from Victoria Park to Agincourt or McCowan.

I'm sure that section could be mined, so still cut cover at either end.

And yeah switching up a Sheppard extension to instead be an extension of the OL trunk (or branch) seems pretty good. At the very least consider converting Sheppard to the OL rolling stock and extend it as standalone line for 50m trains. Save big bucks, and if Mlinx's capacity numbers are to be believed 50m trains will be way more than sufficient. Actually gives the Sheppard Subway a fighting chance at being extended.

 

[Transportfan]

If you have a Mac, great news!

Ortelius is perpetually free with unlimited licences and is completely legal:

http://www.mapdiva.com

Ortelius is a vector-based cartography software, useful for drawing both real-life subway maps and even fantasy subway maps (both based on existing real-life systems and completely fictional subway systems like RM Transit's Patreon subway map).

I just make mine in Paint.net and I think they look great:

To be fair though, I just expanded on a TTC subway map I got off Wikimedia Commons and added a lot to it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/TTC_subway_map_2023.svg/640px-TTC_subway_map_2023.svg.png

 

[H4F33Z]

There have been many conversations on how to expand the Sheppard Subway east. Some say to build it underground to STC, some say build it aboveground on Sheppard, some say to convert the entire line to light metro or to replace the line with an OL Extension.

Here's my alignment. Basically running on Highway 401's express lanes removing one express lane in each direction, and running the heavy rail subway along most of the extension. This makes the line way more efficient and affordable to build. It'll be similar to phase two of the Confederation Line in Ottawa, so it won't be new.

The first phase would be tunnelled from Don Mills to the 401 stopping at Consumers and Victoria Park and rising to the 401 and stopping at Warden. It would continue east along the highway stopping just east of Kennedy and veering off the 401 for an open station at that massive field at Brimley. Then the line interchanges at Scarborough Centre with Line 2 where phase one would end.

Phase 2 (work in progress) continues and has a stop at Progress/Markham for a connection with Centennial College and buses, then potential stops at Neilson, Morningside and Meadowvale and could end at either Rylander (Abbey Lane) or Sheppard/Port Union.

I seriously think this is a really good option for the city/province to build transit a bit more affordably and could actually reduce drivers on the 401 with the conversion of traffic lanes. It'll be construction hell for a decent amount of time but I think it'll be worth it.
Pros:
-Less tunnelling compared to fully tunnelled extension to McCowan; more affordable and quicker building
-No disruption to Sheppard East
-More compelling for commuters to choose transit
Cons:
-Construction Nightmare on the highway and rebuilding some overpasses.
-Highway Stations at Interchanges can be difficult for pedestrians. This can be worked out by making interchanges less encouraging for speeding, -widening sidewalks, cycle tracks, traffic signals controlling on-ramps etc.
-Less potential for development and transformation on Sheppard Avenue East.

Consumers Station would be located underground on Consumers Road connecting with buses and the heart of the business park.

Meadow Acres (Victoria Park) would also be underground connecting with buses, the eastern business park and new developments!

Wishing Well (Warden) will be a simpler station connecting with the 68, Warden Hydro Corridor Trail and the local neighbourhoods.

Village Green (Kennedy) will connect with the 43, Village Green, Kennedy Commons and a potential Stouffville Station (read more below)

Brimley will be a cut-and-cover station on the SW corner of 401 and Brimley connecting with the 21 bus and massive redevelopments.

and Scarborough Centre will connect underground with Line 2, DSBRT and other various connections and POI's.

Phase 2 is still a work in progress for alignment and stations. Also a future station could be added at Birchmount to connect with the far-future Midtown Corridor and Birchmount Rd.


Here's a terrible photoshop of a station at Wishing Well (Warden.) Can you guess which station I stole this entrance from?

Here's a serious proposal for a station at Village Green (Kennedy) that would work hand-in-hand with a new station on the Stouffville Line and would seriously improve transit and active transportation connections in South Agincourt. Sure, there are encroachment issues but I think they can be worked out.

Thoughts?

 

[micheal_can]

There have been many conversations on how to expand the Sheppard Subway east. Some say to build it underground to STC, some say build it aboveground on Sheppard, some say to convert the entire line to light metro or to replace the line with an OL Extension.

Here's my alignment. Basically running on Highway 401's express lanes removing one express lane in each direction, and running the heavy rail subway along most of the extension. This makes the line way more efficient and affordable to build. It'll be similar to phase two of the Confederation Line in Ottawa, so it won't be new.

The first phase would be tunnelled from Don Mills to the 401 stopping at Consumers and Victoria Park and rising to the 401 and stopping at Warden. It would continue east along the highway stopping just east of Kennedy and veering off the 401 for an open station at that massive field at Brimley. Then the line interchanges at Scarborough Centre with Line 2 where phase one would end.

Phase 2 (work in progress) continues and has a stop at Progress/Markham for a connection with Centennial College and buses, then potential stops at Neilson, Morningside and Meadowvale and could end at either Rylander (Abbey Lane) or Sheppard/Port Union.

I seriously think this is a really good option for the city/province to build transit a bit more affordably and could actually reduce drivers on the 401 with the conversion of traffic lanes. It'll be construction hell for a decent amount of time but I think it'll be worth it.
Pros:
-Less tunnelling compared to fully tunnelled extension to McCowan; more affordable and quicker building
-No disruption to Sheppard East
-More compelling for commuters to choose transit
Cons:
-Construction Nightmare on the highway and rebuilding some overpasses.
-Highway Stations at Interchanges can be difficult for pedestrians. This can be worked out by making interchanges less encouraging for speeding, -widening sidewalks, cycle tracks, traffic signals controlling on-ramps etc.
-Less potential for development and transformation on Sheppard Avenue East.

View attachment 371141

Consumers Station would be located underground on Consumers Road connecting with buses and the heart of the business park.

Meadow Acres (Victoria Park) would also be underground connecting with buses, the eastern business park and new developments!

Wishing Well (Warden) will be a simpler station connecting with the 68, Warden Hydro Corridor Trail and the local neighbourhoods.

Village Green (Kennedy) will connect with the 43, Village Green, Kennedy Commons and a potential Stouffville Station (read more below)

Brimley will be a cut-and-cover station on the SW corner of 401 and Brimley connecting with the 21 bus and massive redevelopments.

and Scarborough Centre will connect underground with Line 2, DSBRT and other various connections and POI's.

Phase 2 is still a work in progress for alignment and stations. Also a future station could be added at Birchmount to connect with the far-future Midtown Corridor and Birchmount Rd.


Here's a terrible photoshop of a station at Wishing Well (Warden.) Can you guess which station I stole this entrance from?

View attachment 371143

Here's a serious proposal for a station at Village Green (Kennedy) that would work hand-in-hand with a new station on the Stouffville Line and would seriously improve transit and active transportation connections in South Agincourt. Sure, there are encroachment issues but I think they can be worked out.

View attachment 371144

Thoughts?

I have always wondered why a line above the 401 wasn't built. My question is how you plan on convincing a politician to do what is basically something that will ensure they will not be voted in again by suggesting removing lanes.