TransitBart
Senior Member
You know this is because of dismal political leadership. Every idea needs a champion. We lack champions here. Mayor of Toronto has been a place politicians have gone to bury their careers for a long, long time.
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Sandpit
Active Member
A combination of geology and very high safety standards.
White Pine
Active Member
Would it be possible to build it in a trench? Maybe too much construction disruption, but it allows for grade separation and is cheaper than tunelling. Kind of like this, except in the middle of the road?
https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0378835,-114.1480652,134m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
For example, the TTC streetcar goes into a trench on Spadina and on the Harbourfront route, except imagine that instead it stayed like that instead of eventually going undercover into a loop tunnel.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6652285,-79.4027786,154m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
EDIT: I can see it causing construction headaches, but it wouldn't take up much more physical space than street level LRT.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0378835,-114.1480652,134m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
For example, the TTC streetcar goes into a trench on Spadina and on the Harbourfront route, except imagine that instead it stayed like that instead of eventually going undercover into a loop tunnel.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6652285,-79.4027786,154m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
EDIT: I can see it causing construction headaches, but it wouldn't take up much more physical space than street level LRT.
Amare
Senior Member
Had RoFo and DoFo (Rob and Doug Ford) not sold off the Richview Expressway land, this would have been done but unfortunately Rob Ford came into power at the wrong time.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
There's still lots of land available for a trench on the south side of Eglinton. Since when is parkland untouchable for a public good like transit expansion?
White Pine
Active Member
see "Byron Linear Park"..... in Ottawa
Edit: just checked google maps, it looks like a good chunk of the land has enough space that could be used without too much trouble, but there would be some trouble spots. I do think that if the middle has space for LRT, it has space for a trench. Maybe it would have to be widened a bit, but that would not be measured in whole lanes, rather just by however much is needed to create a curb/railing to prevent cars from falling in.
The south side looks like it has potential too if the city can somehow protect the land from any more development until construction.
The middle could be used between the cemetery and just about renforth at grade as there aren't any problem intersections there.
Edit: just checked google maps, it looks like a good chunk of the land has enough space that could be used without too much trouble, but there would be some trouble spots. I do think that if the middle has space for LRT, it has space for a trench. Maybe it would have to be widened a bit, but that would not be measured in whole lanes, rather just by however much is needed to create a curb/railing to prevent cars from falling in.
The south side looks like it has potential too if the city can somehow protect the land from any more development until construction.
The middle could be used between the cemetery and just about renforth at grade as there aren't any problem intersections there.
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MisterF
Senior Member
That's only because GTA residents don't know what LRT can be. If we built LRT with proper priority over cars and grade separations where needed, they'd be just as effective as subways in corridors with medium demand. See Calgary's LRT for example. Or Ottawa's LRT, which is, at least in the first phase, completely grade separated. If Toronto had LRT that operated like those systems do/will, it would absolutely win votes.
You don't even have to leave Ontario to see a trenched rapid transit system. Ottawa's transitway has significant trenched portions, as does the Mississauga BRT. But for some reason the city of Toronto seems to insist on street-running LRT that stops at red lights, or full tunnels. Nothing in between. It's baffling.
The Calgary LRT section that you linked to is just what much of Transit City could have been. Grade separated and even in tunnels where necessary, complete priority over cars when at grade. This and this could easily be on Eglinton.
Amare
Senior Member
Of course there is a lot of land available on the south side, that's if you're interested in the expropriation of homeowners.
MisterF
Senior Member
Just to drive home the point of what LRT on a street like Eglinton can be, just that one line going west out of downtown Calgary has:
- An elevated section
- At grade sections where the trains never stop for red lights
- Trenched sections
- And even a tunnel
Hopkins123
Senior Member
There's a big honking right of way from East Mall all the way to Islington. Again between Royal York and Scarlett there's land. Only those seeking to find problems refuse to see the obvious solutions.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
Oh my bad, just checked Google Maps. Even between Islington and Royal York there's land!! Why aren't we grade-separating this whole thing, again?
White Pine
Active Member
This 3.7 km stretch could be done without much of that.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Rich...a6386eb1!2m2!1d-79.4947477!2d43.6849496?hl=en
The Humber River throws a bit of a wrench in but it could be *gasp* elevated over Scarlett
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Rich...a6386eb1!2m2!1d-79.4947477!2d43.6849496?hl=en
The Humber River throws a bit of a wrench in but it could be *gasp* elevated over Scarlett
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Amare
Senior Member
You're talking to someone who is very familiar with the area, and doesn't rely on Google Maps for facts and verification. Again, there would be a need for expropriation along various stretches of the south end of the corridor that you're talking about.
Take a walk along the Crosstown West route and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. The affected properties you're alluding to comprise about 5% of the total ROW from East Mall to Scarlett Rd. What's stopping the builders from having this tiny section (mainly between Kipling and Bemersyde) tunnel directly underneath Eglinton emerging from the tunnel into a trench at either side. It's a very simple, practical solution.
Why must we overthink and over-complicate everything in this city to the point that nothing half-decent ever gets built? Eesh!
Amare
Senior Member
I understand exactly what you're trying to say, and the point i'm making is that you cant base your point off of Google Maps. Even if you look at the map, you would understand that this plan would require expropriation.
Every single piece of property between between Martin Grove and Islington would be affected, including 2 TDSB high schools (Martin Grove to a lesser extent, and Richview to a larger extent). If you look at the section between Royal York and Scarlett, it would still require expropriation as it would affect most of those properties. The only section where expropriation wouldn't be needed is the section between Islington and Royal York.
There's no overthinking and over-complications going on, it is simply fact and there's more to building trenches than just digging a hole in the ground. Soil conditions, and engineering play a large role so any trench in this area could be bigger than you would think.
Every single piece of property between between Martin Grove and Islington would be affected, including 2 TDSB high schools (Martin Grove to a lesser extent, and Richview to a larger extent). If you look at the section between Royal York and Scarlett, it would still require expropriation as it would affect most of those properties. The only section where expropriation wouldn't be needed is the section between Islington and Royal York.
There's no overthinking and over-complications going on, it is simply fact and there's more to building trenches than just digging a hole in the ground. Soil conditions, and engineering play a large role so any trench in this area could be bigger than you would think.