[rbt]

More interesting is that they need to run at 2 minute headways with 3-car trains for 2031 to meet projected demand.

Southbound Yonge does not have capacity for an extra ~9,000 people transferring to southbound during morning rush. No amount of ATC or longer trains or even 7th car will give it that capacity; normal ridership growth north of Eglinton will be eating those capacity enhancements; particularly is Sheppard or the Yonge extension are built.

For the 9,000 number, I've used the assumption that 25% are going through at Yonge, 50% are transferring southbound, and 25% are transferring northbound. The only way this actually works if is Eglinton has diverted a substantion amount of east/west ridership on York Mills, Sheppard, Finch, etc. to North/South routes connecting to Eglinton. The Danforth ridership does not appear reduced

Any Yonge relief line Yonge will also relieve Eglinton and Danforth peak point ridership.

Yes, Eglinton will be busy but for it to be above capacity without Yonge being dangerously above capacity is very unlikely.

 

[gweed123]

Southbound Yonge does not have capacity for an extra ~9,000 people transferring to southbound during morning rush. No amount of ATC or longer trains or even 7th car will give it that capacity; normal ridership growth north of Eglinton will be eating those capacity enhancements; particularly is Sheppard or the Yonge extension are built.

For the 9,000 number, I've used the assumption that 25% are going through at Yonge, 50% are transferring southbound, and 25% are transferring northbound. The only way this actually works if is Eglinton has diverted a substantion amount of east/west ridership on York Mills, Sheppard, Finch, etc. to North/South routes connecting to Eglinton. The Danforth ridership does not appear reduced

Any Yonge relief line Yonge will also relieve Eglinton and Danforth peak point ridership.

Yes, Eglinton will be busy but for it to be above capacity without Yonge being severely above capacity is very unlikely.

I think eventually what will happen is people who are trying to transfer southbound onto Yonge will say "screw it, I'll just stay on the extra couple of stops and transfer at Eglinton West instead". Hopefully this will help distribute some of the load. As I've mentioned earlier, if one of the short-turns is extended to Glencairn, it'll basically mean every 2nd or 3rd train entering Eglinton West southbound will be empty.

 

[rbt]

I think eventually what will happen is people who are trying to transfer southbound onto Yonge will say "screw it, I'll just stay on the extra couple of stops and transfer at Eglinton West instead". Hopefully this will help distribute some of the load. As I've mentioned earlier, if one of the short-turns is extended to Glencairn, it'll basically mean every 2nd or 3rd train entering Eglinton West southbound will be empty.

It actually appears they've accounted for that. They show about roughly 50% of passengers going southbound from the East to be passing Yonge and transferring at Eglinton West. Wish re-affirms that Eglinton will not get this ridership without a lot of pain in other locations.

Solutions for Yonge line capacity like a DRL or high frequency Richmond Hill service (can a practical interchange be built?) will gut Eglinton ridership in the Yonge-DonMills peak point on Eglinton. The chance of a seat and a faster trip; few will pass it up unless they need to.

The peak point on the SRT replacement is much more interesting. They've projected a near quadroupling of ridership on that segment over today.

 

[gweed123]

It actually appears they've accounted for that. They show about roughly 50% of passengers going southbound from the East to be passing Yonge and transferring at Eglinton West. Wish re-affirms that Eglinton will not get this ridership without a lot of pain in other locations.

I don't doubt it. In order to be successful, Eglinton needs to have a lot of N-S routes to transfer onto. Just having 2 (3 if you count Kennedy) transfer points to downtown-bound trains isn't going to do it, especially when those two lines have little capacity space to absorb those riders.

Solutions for Yonge line capacity like a DRL or high frequency Richmond Hill service (can a practical interchange be built?) will gut Eglinton ridership in the Yonge-DonMills peak point on Eglinton. The chance of a seat and a faster trip; few will pass it up unless they need to.

Only semi-realistic way to do it is to route the Richmond Hill line around the west side of Don Mills instead of the east side and through the Don Valley. This does force it to run along CP tracks for a stretch though, and the interchange at Don Mills and Eglinton would be an interesting engineering feat. However, it still beats having a station in a valley underneath Eglinton.

The peak point on the SRT replacement is much more interesting. They've projected a near quadroupling of ridership on that segment over today.

That doesn't surprise me. Addition of a thru-service plus replacing a technology that many people in Scarborough dislike (for many reasons). There's quite a bit of latent demand on that route, especially once connections to STC are improved.

 

[rbt]

I don't doubt it. In order to be successful, Eglinton needs to have a lot of N-S routes to transfer onto. Just having 2 (3 if you count Kennedy) transfer points to downtown-bound trains isn't going to do it, especially when those two lines have little capacity space to absorb those riders.

Exactly, and if you add additional north/south interchanges then you significantly reduce peak point ridership on Eglinton. 3-cars will be plenty of train for a very long time.

 

[Solid Snake]

Eglinton LRT ready to launch

http://www.thestar.com/news/ttc/article/1017076--eglinton-lrt-ready-to-launch

Along Eglinton Ave., they’ve been waiting nearly 20 years for someone to replace the subway that former Premier Mike Harris cancelled in 1995.

This summer, that wait will finally be rewarded when the TTC starts digging the first tunneling shaft for the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown Light Rail Transit (LRT) line.

The $8.2 billion provincially funded LRT will be wholly owned by Ontario and is slated for completion in 2020. Construction will begin around Black Creek Dr., where, next summer, the first of four enormous tunnel-boring machines will be launched from that pit.

The LRT will run about 20 kilometres underground to Kennedy station, where it will continue seamlessly above-ground for 6 kilometres on the route of what is now the Scarborough RT.

Most of the disruption from construction will be around stations and the shafts from which the tunneling machines will be launched and extracted.

Ontario Transportation Minister Kathleen Wynne and TTC chair Karen Stintz will be discussing the project at a public meeting from 7 to 8:30 p.m. Thursday, at the York Civic Centre Council Chamber, 2700 Eglinton Ave. W.

The Toronto Star asked Jack Collins, Metrolinx vice-president for rapid transit implementation, about the project:

Given the Eglinton line will run mostly underground, how does LRT differ from subway?

Subway trains have six cars. LRTs will be run in three-car trains.

“A subway train is about 145 metres long and we are 97 metres long. Because of that you can get more people in a subway. Capacity is a difference, but we’re sizing the capacity to meet the needs of the Eglinton line and future growth, and we don’t feel a subway is necessary,†Collins said.

The original LRT plan called for only an 11-kilometre tunnel in the middle. With the switch, the trains are now expected to travel at subway speeds, averaging 34 km/h versus 22 km/h. The trip between Jane and Kennedy will take about 25 minutes, rather than 45.

How many people will ride it?

Metrolinx estimates 12,000 riders an hour during rush hours through the busiest sections, east of Yonge. Projections west of Yonge are about half that.

“The scale coming from the east is much heavier in the peak hours,†Collins said. That’s because many SRT riders will now choose to stay on the Eglinton line rather than switch to the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Won’t so many riders getting off at Yonge over-burden that subway line, which is already at capacity?

Between the TTC’s new subway trains, which carry up to 10 per cent more riders, and a new computerized signaling system that will allow Yonge trains to run closer together, Yonge will have about 30 per cent more capacity in coming years.

“We think that will handle the additional people,†he said. “The Bloor-Danforth line actually gets some relief. People getting on downstream in the morning perhaps will now get a seat.â€

Will the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown open in sections or all at once, as is planned for the Spadina subway extension into York Region?

“Initially our thoughts were to open it all at once. The more we think about that, we may have a phased opening … There’s a lot of issues related to that. You have to have all the systems, the track in place, and how much will you have done?†Because the tunneling will begin in the west and move east, for example, it might be possible to begin service earlier between Black Creek and Laird.

What’s the plan for stations?

There will be a maximum of 26, about 800 metres apart in the middle section, farther apart in less-travelled areas. Underground stations will cost about $100 million each. Public consultations on station designs will take place in fall. Among the first to be designed are Eglinton West; Caledonia, where there’s a potential connection to GO’s Barrie line; Keele; Dufferin; Bathurst; Oakwood and Chaplin. Work is beginning on the complex task of reconfiguring Kennedy.

What happens to SRT riders while the line is converted to LRT?

The current plan is to shut down the SRT after the 2015 Pan Am Games, with a design and contractor ready to go. Riders would be bused until the LRT is completed — as soon as possible, probably about three years. “We could have a section on the Scarborough line that gets up and running before 2020 — from Scarborough Centre to Kennedy. Then you’d still have a forced transfer there initially, because we wouldn’t have that line finished, but at least you’d have the benefit of having that end up and running again and the additional capacity.â€

Will the LRT be driverless?

“The trains will have fully functional cabs. (They) may have somebody sitting in there as a customer ambassador, similar to the GO trains. But the actual acceleration, deceleration and braking will be computer-controlled, which is called Automatic Train Operation. If we ever come out to surface — we have that option with LRT, and (could) run on the surface to the airport at a future date — we would revert to operator control,†Collins said. “But initially weâ€re going to be underground or on an exclusive right-of-way out in Scarborough, so we’ll be on ATO.â€

 

[Dan416]

Gets my stamp of approval.

 

[Eug]

That 3 years of SRT --> bussing is gonna be painful, but then again if they can keep it down to 3 years, then that's OK. One just hopes it doesn't end up being much longer than that. So, 2018 for a Kennedy - Scarborough Town Centre LRT?

 

[nfitz]

The original LRT plan called for only an 11-kilometre tunnel in the middle. With the switch, the trains are now expected to travel at subway speeds, averaging 34 km/h versus 22 km/h. The trip between Jane and Kennedy will take about 25 minutes, rather than 45.

That must be a typo in the article.

It says "the trains are now expected to travel at subway speeds, averaging 34 km/h versus 22 km/h. The trip between Jane and Kennedy will take about 25 minutes, rather than 45"

It's almost exactly 20 km from Jane to Kennedy station. 20 km at 34 km/hr is 35 minutes, not 25 minutes.

To travel 20 km in 25 minutes you'd have to travel at 48 km/hr!

Presumably the 25 minutes is a typo and it should read 35 minutes.

 

[GenerationW]

Caledonia, where there’s a potential connection to GO’s Barrie line

Potential connection?? Shouldn't this have been decided by now?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

To support putting the LRT underground east of Laird, the city will have to allow high density along the corridor. That means no more single-level, single-use use buildings. No buildings below 10 stories in height and the gradual disappearance of the parking lots around Eglinton East.

 

[gweed123]

Gets my stamp of approval.

Agreed. They'll need to do some pretty extensive upgrades to Eglinton-Yonge though in order to handle the transfer demand. Maybe a Union-style 2nd platform? Or go really big and do Toronto's first 3 platform station (build 1 on each side). That way the in and out movements can be separated, speeding up the transfer process. The LRT platform underneath would need to have a larger centre median platform than most other stations as well.

 

[accura407]

Just going to put this out there since nobody has yet to do it...

A) Why do we need a person inside the train if it is going to be entirely automated? Is not the main point of automation the advantage of saving labour costs? Once we put them in they will be there forever like today's SRT

B) Anyone notice how the station designs do not have fare controlled areas. This would mean metrolinx is adament in pushing POP. Hats of to them!

 

[rbt]

A) Why do we need a person inside the train if it is going to be entirely automated? Is not the main point of automation the advantage of saving labour costs? Once we put them in they will be there forever like today's SRT

Mostly handling emergencies as the emergency strip is hit a number of times per day. There will also be days when the automation fails and manual intervention is required. You will find that most high capacity automated lines still have a person onboard who are trained to drive the train.

I would like to see the train driver become more along the lines of a special constable (fare enforcement and limited EMT) who also happens to be able to deal with some train issues (taking it out of service, stop & creep past a broken signal, etc.).

I've been on a couple of Vancouver trains where the door wouldn't close because someone was holding the train for a friend for ~5 minutes. Having a person nearby with some authority who can force them in or out of the train would have helped significantly. Another fun thing to do in Vancouver is to shove an empty cardboard box (waxed veggy boxes are pretty solid) into the door on an empty train at a very low volume station. It can take 15 to 20 minutes for someone to be dispatched and move it out of the way.

 

[accura407]

Mostly handling emergencies as the emergency strip is hit a number of times per day. There will also be days when the automation fails and manual intervention is required. You will find that most high capacity automated lines still have a person onboard who are trained to drive the train.

I would like to see the train driver become more along the lines of a special constable (fare enforcement and limited EMT) who also happens to be able to deal with some train issues (taking it out of service, stop & creep past a broken signal, etc.).

I've been on a couple of Vancouver trains where the door wouldn't close because someone was holding the train for a friend for ~5 minutes. Having a person nearby with some authority who can force them in or out of the train would have helped significantly. Another fun thing to do in Vancouver is to shove an empty cardboard box (waxed veggy boxes are pretty solid) into the door on an empty train at a very low volume station. It can take 15 to 20 minutes for someone to be dispatched and move it out of the way.

Fine so keep them in rush hours and have it unmanned during off-peak periods...I don't think every single train from ~5am to ~1am needs a person on board. Automated should be put to full use. I think even if some times delays happen for stupid reasons, i think overall the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I do agree though that if they are put to use as POP checkers throughout the train ride, that would then be a good use of having someone on board...They would basically be doing two jobs...Fare Collector & Train Operator!

Toronto has to Severely change its employment model for transit because the current system is ass-backwards and a huge drain on revenues...more POP and automated fare gates is the way to go. Start by eliminating fare collectors from low volume stations like Bessarion in off-peak periods and putting in fare barriers. Presto will surely help with this process more...using a phased approach, soon the entire TTC can have unmanned stations across the network.

Let the TTC focus its employer resources on real needs like driving buses or maintenance instead of having overpriced fare watchers...