SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Really happy to see Baker supporting this project. He is a hard working MPP with a good head on his shoulders.
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Really happy to see Baker supporting this project. He is a hard working MPP with a good head on his shoulders.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Is this guy trying to turn Crosstown West into Scarborough Subway 2.0? This thing is carrying something like 7,000 pphpd. What a waste of money to tunnel it for relatively few riders. Repeating the mistakes of Spadina, Sheppard and Scarborough.
SJD_Toronto
Active Member
I'm not a fan at all of the Ontario Liberals and I really want Kathleen Wynne and many of her top MPP goons, like Deb Matthews and Eric Hoskins, to go down in flames in 2018 but I do like Baker. I think he would be an appealing choice to become the next Ontario Liberal leader.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
You have to let go of the by the book way. The people in this city are cry babies about above ground transit north of St.Clair.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
That is not at all what he is saying. He said he originally he was looking at burying it, but seems to have conceded that the idea of grade separations isa good idea, which it is.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
I'm guessing that the Etobicoke Centre MPP, Yvan Baker, is only looking at the LRT within the boundaries of his riding. Jane Street and Pearson Airport are not included.
Palma
Senior Member
But grade separations only at intersections? I thought thats what it was always going to be. But it won;t be grade separated all the wast from MOunt Dennis will it?
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
The EA had it at grade from east of Jane Street until Commerce Blvd/401. After SmartTrack, it was suggested for grade separations at the major intersections and over the Humber River & Eglinton Flats. Adding the grade separations (plural) would mean an EA amendment.
Personally, I think the Martin Grove & Eglinton intersection should be grade separated because that was one of the most congested intersections in Toronto. Click on this link. (Also why Kingston Road & Lawrence should be grade separated in the east side.) Making all the major intersections grade separated would increase the capital cost.
Personally, I think the Martin Grove & Eglinton intersection should be grade separated because that was one of the most congested intersections in Toronto. Click on this link. (Also why Kingston Road & Lawrence should be grade separated in the east side.) Making all the major intersections grade separated would increase the capital cost.
crs1026
Superstar
The grade separations will add cost, but this is one of the make-or-break design points that has the potential to kill support for LRT in this city once and for all if not done right.
The traffic study in the EA kind of mumbled when they reported on the traffic modelling regarding left turns. If you read the fine print, the volume of left turns at all the major streets - Kipling, Islington, and to some degree Royal York - is substantial. The traffic light timing required to clear that volume of turning traffic presents obstacles for traffic priority signalling for the LRT. Without this traffic priority, LRT velocity will suffer. There are lots of 'D' ratings in the data - which the EA did not draw much profile to.
The solution proposed - U turn points - actually impairs the LRT more, because it creates three points of conflict (where LRT will encounter timed red lights) for each major intersection. A conventional intersection with separate transit signalling only has one such point of conflict. I'm skeptical what the u turn flow will do to traffic volumes, also, as every u-turning vehicle will have to lane change after crossing the LRT track before turning right. Dedicated left lanes will be needed to hold vehicles intending to U- turn, and dedicated right turn lanes will be needed because of the extra right turn volume - in a corridor that is width challenged. Eglinton is a major arterial street and no one benefits if higher order transit leads to poorer vehicular flows here.
Add local residents' vehement upset about losing left turns at the intermediate lights, such aw Wincott - it's a good thing that staff were sent away to do more detailed traffic study and to rethink the grade separations.
We all like LRT because it's so much cheaper than subways, but if we push the pendulum to ultra cheap design, we end up with a product that doesn't work well. Going too cheap is as big a waste of money as building subways where LRT can work. Adding some further grade separation is prudent here.
- Paul
The traffic study in the EA kind of mumbled when they reported on the traffic modelling regarding left turns. If you read the fine print, the volume of left turns at all the major streets - Kipling, Islington, and to some degree Royal York - is substantial. The traffic light timing required to clear that volume of turning traffic presents obstacles for traffic priority signalling for the LRT. Without this traffic priority, LRT velocity will suffer. There are lots of 'D' ratings in the data - which the EA did not draw much profile to.
The solution proposed - U turn points - actually impairs the LRT more, because it creates three points of conflict (where LRT will encounter timed red lights) for each major intersection. A conventional intersection with separate transit signalling only has one such point of conflict. I'm skeptical what the u turn flow will do to traffic volumes, also, as every u-turning vehicle will have to lane change after crossing the LRT track before turning right. Dedicated left lanes will be needed to hold vehicles intending to U- turn, and dedicated right turn lanes will be needed because of the extra right turn volume - in a corridor that is width challenged. Eglinton is a major arterial street and no one benefits if higher order transit leads to poorer vehicular flows here.
Add local residents' vehement upset about losing left turns at the intermediate lights, such aw Wincott - it's a good thing that staff were sent away to do more detailed traffic study and to rethink the grade separations.
We all like LRT because it's so much cheaper than subways, but if we push the pendulum to ultra cheap design, we end up with a product that doesn't work well. Going too cheap is as big a waste of money as building subways where LRT can work. Adding some further grade separation is prudent here.
- Paul
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
I've entertained some wacky ideas about this stretch of road. Bear with me...
Probably a fatal flaw I haven't thought of.
- Leave the stops at major intersections at grade. No elevators, quick access, cheap and low-maintenance.
- Ban left turns and build the U-turn points / Michigan lefts / whatever.
- Grade-separate LRT under the U-turn points, not the intersections.
Probably a fatal flaw I haven't thought of.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
The typical Toronto driver, maybe?
crs1026
Superstar
Not a bad idea, in all.
i wonder about space. The U-turn idea requires right turn lanes at the intersections, which the planners were not totally enamoured with. Thanks to RoFo's regrettable fire sale on developable land, that lane may not fit in the intersections, without sacrificing on pedestrian and bicycle space, at least.
- Paul
BurlOak
Senior Member
I agree the mid-block stops should be eliminated - both for speed and for cost in the grade-separated scenario. The key is for the bus to serve the mid-block areas.
What is within walking distance of a potential East Mall stop - a small strip mall on the SW corner, a creek on the East, and freeways all around. The East Mall bus just needs to stop at the grade-separated Martin Grove Station.
I think its too lake for Eglinton East. Beyond Don Mills to UTSC, the even worse decision was to not grade-separate from Laird to Don Mills. At the time 5 years ago, all provincial and municipal politicians prioritized defeating Ford and would not support any grade-separation plan that looked like Ford would support. It would have been super easy to grade-separate from Brentcliffe to Don Mills, and also easy enough from Don Mills to Kennedy. However, we will suffer long into the future because of the actions of these politicians in the past 5 years.
Attachments
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The typical Toronto driver, maybe?
Well, I don't think drivers will have to be happy about having to drive further to make a U turn to make a turn they've always been able to make.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
What are these maps describing?