[howl]

One hundred percent that is what will happen with the other transit projects on the books, SELRT and FWLRT foremost. With Eglinton I can see Hudak absolutely insisting on underground only, the at-grade sections going back to the drawing board, and coming back with plans for underground-only LRT with a far higher price tag, and Hudak scoffing and saying it's too much money.

So, basically, the shredding picture is correct. Though I'd be wary about polls projecting a PC majority. I could see a PC minority, scary though that too could be, but it's within the realm of possibility also for the Liberals to pull a minority still.

What the politicians and failing to grasp is that the most important thing with transit in Toronto is not what form it takes, or even where it is located. The MOST important thing is that something gets built as soon as possible. It takes ten to fifteen years of planning, design and construction to bring any new transit line to life. Changes to projects should only happen during the planning phase. Cancelling or changing any project once it's into its design phase not only results in major financial waste to the project, but it also has huge cost implications to community as whole as they'll have to go another decade living with gridlock.

 

[Conrad Black]

Hudak can't change it now. Too far gone.

 

[nfitz]

Hudak can't change it now. Too far gone.

How is it too far gone? Even if they complete the tunnelling (which is less than 20% done), that's only $500 million. They've yet to issue the main contract (about $4 billion) to build the stations, track, yard, etc. That $4 billion can be used elsewhere ... like providing tax cuts for the rich and corporations.

 

[Solid Snake]

How is it too far gone? Even if they complete the tunnelling (which is less than 20% done), that's only $500 million. They've yet to issue the main contract (about $4 billion) to build the stations, track, yard, etc. That $4 billion can be used elsewhere ... like providing tax cuts for the rich and corporations.

 

[nfitz]

Suggesting that Hudak would keep his promise to cancel all the LRT lines, and have the one major project for Toronto, the Downtown Relief Line, is a conspiracy?

Has it really got to the point where we consider a politician keeping his promises a conspiracy?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How is it too far gone? Even if they complete the tunnelling (which is less than 20% done), that's only $500 million. They've yet to issue the main contract (about $4 billion) to build the stations, track, yard, etc. That $4 billion can be used elsewhere ... like providing tax cuts for the rich and corporations.

Suggesting that Hudak would keep his promise to cancel all the LRT lines, and have the one major project for Toronto, the Downtown Relief Line, is a conspiracy?

Has it really got to the point where we consider a politician keeping his promises a conspiracy?

I agree with nfitz, something is going to happen to all of the LRT in some form soon.

 

[ehlow]

I agree with nfitz, something is going to happen to all of the LRT in some form soon.

The thing is the "cancelling all LRT" + "burying Eglinton as much as possible" quotes very much leaves open the interpretation that by making Eglinton underground, it is transformed into a "subway" rather than count as an "LRT", even if it keeps the same vehicle.

In the 2010 Ford MUO plan, Eglinton being fully buried was considered by Ford as a "subway", even though it used LRV vehicles, and he's hates LRT more than anybody. I could easily imagine something like that happening, or easily imagine the LRT being shortened to the underground part only.

Anyways this has been debated forever. In my opinion it's simply not clear, they have made some statements, but I doubt anybody knows for sure what will happen if Hudak wins.

 

[rbt]

I agree with nfitz, something is going to happen to all of the LRT in some form soon.

Note the use of specific dates for his income tax adjustment commitment and how it is immediately after the budget is balanced. Note, for his transit commitments, the lack of dates and how "after the budget is balanced" could mean the next day or the next term, or the next decade. I think nfitz is on the money with his assessment of Hudak's priorities.


"Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak threw a juicy bone to Ontario voters Tuesday, promising to phase in a 10 per cent cut to personal income taxes after a Tory government balances the budget in 2016-17."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...-government-would-trim-income-taxes-1.2641762


"In a technical backgrounder on the policy changes the Conservatives promise to make, the party vows “to phase in a personal income tax reduction after the budget is balanced,” in 2016 — a year before the Liberals are planning to balance the books."
...
"To that end, if elected next month, a PC government would immediately lower the general corporate tax rate to 10 per cent from the current 11.5 per cent (already among the lowest tax rates in the Canada, the Liberals point out). In 2016, when the PCs say they will bring in a balanced budget, Hudak said he would further lower the tax rate to eight per cent."

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busine...come+taxes+2016+when+clean/9834963/story.html

Note that the immediate 11% reduction in corporate tax rates will immediately reduce revenue and reduce borrowing capabilities for the province for capital works.

Also, this second article is about Hudak's non-commitment to a system for preventing raw-sewage spills in the Ottawa river.

 

[ehlow]

What the politicians and failing to grasp is that the most important thing with transit in Toronto is not what form it takes, or even where it is located. The MOST important thing is that something gets built as soon as possible. It takes ten to fifteen years of planning, design and construction to bring any new transit line to life. Changes to projects should only happen during the planning phase. Cancelling or changing any project once it's into its design phase not only results in major financial waste to the project, but it also has huge cost implications to community as whole as they'll have to go another decade living with gridlock.

Agreed. The thing I dislike most is changing plans years after the appropriate time to do so, wasting time and money.

At the end of the the day usually something being built is the most important thing, whereas we bicker over technology details all the time.

Often when we bicker of technology choices, any of the choices would be a vast improvement over the current situation. Ex. Scarborough LRT vs subway. Either way would be much better than the SRT. BRT vs LRT, there isn't that big of a difference (at least using my interpretation of BRT which has dedicated lanes).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The thing is the "cancelling all LRT" + "burying Eglinton as much as possible" quotes very much leaves open the interpretation that by making Eglinton underground, it is transformed into a "subway" rather than count as an "LRT", even if it keeps the same vehicle.

In the 2010 Ford MUO plan, Eglinton being fully buried was considered by Ford as a "subway", even though it used LRV vehicles, and he's hates LRT more than anybody. I could easily imagine something like that happening, or easily imagine the LRT being shortened to the underground part only.

Anyways this has been debated forever. In my opinion it's simply not clear, they have made some statements, but I doubt anybody knows for sure what will happen if Hudak wins.

Right but we both know this is not true, its an underground lrt.

 

[ehlow]

Right but we both know this is not true, its an underground lrt.

ha ha... you have to realize that many of these politicians & the average person doesn't really know transit technology as well as us. Most don't know the difference between an underground LRT and a subway. Try asking some people that don't follow transit closely.

When Rob Ford says "subways subways subways" he really means "underground transit"

 

[nfitz]

The thing is the "cancelling all LRT" + "burying Eglinton as much as possible" quotes very much leaves open the interpretation that by making Eglinton underground, it is transformed into a "subway" rather than count as an "LRT", even if it keeps the same vehicle.

He hasn't mentioned "burying Eglinton as much as possible" during the election campaign. Only the one major Toronto project .. (east-west subway south of Bloor). The White Paper is a longer term plan than just the upcoming Parliament (presumably 2014-2018).

Anyways this has been debated forever. In my opinion it's simply not clear, they have made some statements, but I doubt anybody knows for sure what will happen if Hudak wins.

Generally what get's delivered is less than promised. And we are being promised very little during the campaign.

 

[ksun]

ha ha... you have to realize that many of these politicians & the average person doesn't really know transit technology as well as us. Most don't know the difference between an underground LRT and a subway. Try asking some people that don't follow transit closely.

When Rob Ford says "subways subways subways" he really means "underground transit"

true.
but for ordinary people, what matter more is whether it is weather proof underground without stopping for traffic lights, not techonological difference.
For myself, there is transit stopping for traffic lights and that which doesn't. The 501 which stops every 100 meters tells me it is not rapid transit.

 

[nfitz]

The 501 which stops every 100 meters tells me it is not rapid transit.

No one says it is. But none of the new LRT lines have stops every 100 metres, and none are in mixed traffic.

501 does quite nicely between Humber Loop and Parkside, where the stops are further apart, and it's not in mixed traffic, doing the 2.3 km in only 6 minutes ... an average of 23 km/hr even in the worst of traffic. Compare to the 2.3 km from Ossington to Roncesvalle, which is scheduled to take 9 minutes (15 km/hr) ... and often will take longer.

And then there's the 2.3 km from Church to Bathurst ... it's scheduled as 15 minutes (9 km/hr) and 17 minutes westbound in PM rush (8 km/hr). And we all know it can be slower than that!

 

[BurlOak]

He hasn't mentioned "burying Eglinton as much as possible" during the election campaign. Only the one major Toronto project .. (east-west subway south of Bloor). The White Paper is a longer term plan than just the upcoming Parliament (presumably 2014-2018).

The absence of any mention of Eglinton is somewhat interesting and I do not imagine he can ignore commenting on it for the entire campaign. I would guess that he is just breaking down with transportation policy into smaller, bite sizes pieces. That we he would get more press coverage than if were all said in one day.