[11th]

..
All this so we can run a narrower light rail vehicle with low platform boarding.

I'm not even suggesting that we could have substituted the LRT for a subway or even a 2-car Canada line train. Had we used some kind of high floor LRT like Calgary with 3rd rail pickup for the tunneled portions, we would probably have saved a pretty penny on the excavation costs, plus you wouldn't have to worry about all the other negatives of low platform systems, such as narrow interiors above the trucks and people wandering onto the tracks to see when the next train is coming.

Just a thought, if they do use high-platforms on the line, shouldn't it be possible to just use the subway trainsets?

 

[CDL.TO]

Just a thought, if they do use high-platforms on the line, shouldn't it be possible to just use the subway trainsets?

No. The surface section would prevent them from doing so.

 

[andrewpmk]

​

No. The surface section would prevent them from doing so.

Buffalo has a partly underground light rail system (similar to what is proposed with Eglinton) which uses high floor light rail vehicles running in 2-4 car formations. It uses overhead wire with pantographs. In the above ground section in downtown Buffalo, it uses low platforms and retractable staircases, except one part of the platform has a high floor section with a ramp for wheelchairs. In the underground section high platforms are used.

 

[11th]

No. The surface section would prevent them from doing so.

But they could build it like the surface section of Brown line of the Chicago L. It also uses third-rail and has high-platforms.

 

[drum118]

Buffalo has a partly underground light rail system (similar to what is proposed with Eglinton) which uses high floor light rail vehicles running in 2-4 car formations. It uses overhead wire with pantographs. In the above ground section in downtown Buffalo, it uses low platforms and retractable staircases, except one part of the platform has a high floor section with a ramp for wheelchairs. In the underground section high platforms are used.

The only reason they have high platform was the fact that lowfloor cars didn't exist at the time.

Same can be said for a number of systems built in the 70's and 80's with Calgary and Edmonton among them. Very hard to change to lowfloor now.

 

[sixrings]

http://www.cp24.com/news/city-has-leverage-in-fight-for-lrt-line-control-perks-1.975604

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just been reported in twittersphere that TTC is back as the operator of the line.

Of two minds about this - I do think that they should come to a happy consensus, i.e. TTC should move away from project planning, construction contract management (up to Metrolinx) and the provision of non-core services (cleaning, vehicle maintenance, to the private sector) while keeping operation of the line itself in house, though not without an eye toward increasing automation where possible.

AoD

 

[rbt]

...though not without an eye toward increasing automation where possible.

Change this to reducing cost per passenger.

Most automation is done to increase consistency and throughput. Since automation often comes with very heavy maintenance costs it's often not cheaper unless there are buyers for that throughput which Eglinton can't have (feeding into Yonge faster than Yonge can clear it away would be really really bad).


I have a few friends doing PLC (computer control) design for various GTA factories. In many cases you can hire dozens of staff for what they charge for a year to automate a simple system.

Automating driving in the tunnel makes sense (with a driver on-board for emergencies).

Automating station painting on the other hand would be silly despite being easily implemented (Hacklab could whip together a robot over a couple of months).

 

[canmark]

LRT back in the hands of the TTC.

Toronto’s four new LRT lines will be operated by its public transit agency and not a private company, transit officials said on Wednesday.

The announcement was made at a joint press conference with Ontario Transportation Minister Bob Chiarelli and TTC Chair Karen Stintz, putting to rest a simmering conflict over the management of the new lines.

The new deal means that that the lines will remain publicly owned and will be operated by the TTC.

The tracks and stations will be built and maintained by private operators, Chiarelli said.

* * *

Metrolinx, the province’s transit planning group, said last month that it would seek a private company to run the new lines, rather than hand day-to-day operations over to the TTC.

The TTC claimed that private operations of the new lines would cause serious problems with how the LRT lines fit within Toronto’s transit system.

Stintz said on Wednesday that the new deal means that TTC riders will be able to use the entire system without being forced to pay separate fares and face hassles when transferring between lines.

 

[snowystar]

Change this to reducing cost per passenger.

Most automation is done to increase consistency and throughput. Since automation often comes with very heavy maintenance costs it's often not cheaper unless there are buyers for that throughput which Eglinton can't have (feeding into Yonge faster than Yonge can clear it away would be really really bad).

In Vancouver, they were proposed to cut 45,000 annual hours of SkyTrain service and re-allocate the fund to other projects such as Surrey rapid bus. The cut itself would save $500k per year. So this gives an operating cost of around $11 per hours for the service being cut.

 

[rbt]

In Vancouver, they were proposed to cut 45,000 annual hours of SkyTrain service and re-allocate the fund to other projects such as Surrey rapid bus. The cut itself would save $500k per year. So this gives an operating cost of around $11 per hours for the service being cut.

Tell me, what is the cost of running that first 1 second of automated service per day? You're completely right that it scales up very cheaply from there but that first second is really really expensive.

It's similar to the reason TTC provides 5 minute service at midnight on a Tuesday on the subway lines. The savings by cutting it is such a small percentage of the total that it rounds out.


Anyway, a focus on "automation where possible" isn't fiscally prudent. Some things do have savings by being automated but not even in Vancouver do they have automated track repair/replacement, automated garbage collection, automated inspections, automated plumbing installation/maintenance, automated tile grouting, automated painting, automated snow clearning, etc.


Careful wording is required when giving a government organization a mandate as you just might get what you ask for.

Giving them a mandate to automate where technically possible would very quickly break the bank; although I'd personally love it. I make good money putting people out of work.


Provided TTC is the operator of Eglinton and the private partner uses TTC control center, the tunnel portion of Eglinton will have automated driving.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps next they'll change their minds about it running under Eglinton at all just like they change their minds every 5 minutes with everything else to do with it.

 

[nfitz]

Tell me, what is the cost of running that first 1 second of automated service per day? You're completely right that it scales up very cheaply from there but that first second is really really expensive.

Bingo. It's the difference between the marginal cost of an hour of service, to the average cost of an hour of service. For the average cost, you have to pay station staff, maintenance, cleaning, power, etc. But the marginal cost of running more trains, doesn't include any of those costs at all.

 

[nfitz]

Perhaps next they'll change their minds about it running under Eglinton at all just like they change their minds every 5 minutes with everything else to do with it.

It does seem a lot of drama about something that may never happen. I really don't have a lot of expectation that any of this will be built, other than the piece of subway from Yonge to Weston on Eglinton, that they've already awarded a contract for.

 

[gweed123]

It does seem a lot of drama about something that may never happen. I really don't have a lot of expectation that any of this will be built, other than the piece of subway from Yonge to Weston on Eglinton, that they've already awarded a contract for.

Agreed. I think come 2014 we're going to have another battle over this stuff. The only piece that seems safe is the tunnelled portion of Eglinton. And personally, I'm fine with that. I'd much rather have a BRT + Subway solution for a lot of the corridors anyways (the subway only being a B-D extension to Sheppard-McCowan). If the subway extension doesn't materialize, I'd like to see Eglinton East elevated or trenched and connected as a through line to the SRT revamp (which was THE plan a year ago, and seems to have been dropped in favour of separate lines again).