[BurlOak]

This is often referred to as a Design Build Finance Operate Maintain contract. Where the money is eventually paid to the private sector for the total cost, but in the interim it is designed, built and financed by the private industry to reduce the upfront capital costs to the government. Another advantage with this is expertise, since the private sector will be building the line, it makes sense to have the same company design it for their own optimal operating preocedures. This allows the private sector to tailor and build the line at a better quality and more efficient design that will ultimately help them make better returns when they run it.

Perhaps they may push for the Eglinton and Scarborough lines to be combined, since the infrastructure will already be in place for a single through route?

Also, it would have been nice for them to look at an elevated option for Eglinton East, as well as Finch and Sheppard (for the latter, possibly even creating a portal to allow through routing with the subway) to help boost ridership, but I'm guessing we are beyond the point of no return and to implement such changes would cost too much time and money.

It seems the design portion only includes detailed design. I understand that the Canada Line in Vancouver was a true Design Build Finance Operate Maintain Contract thatspecified certain service levels and left to the contractor to do the entire design so they could optimize things based on their strengths and previous experiences.

For Eglinton, the option to save money on tunnelling by using Skytrain technology, or using single tunnel instead of twin has been removed from the Contractor. I doubt an elevated through Scarborough would not lower the operating expenses enough to justify the extra construction costs to elevate the line. The entire conceptual design appears to be complete before it is handed over so I do not think we will see anything too innovative. The connected SRT/Eglinton may be possible depending on if they are paid based on boardings or trip distance.

 

[sixrings]

my biggest question is will this now mean the elimination of oakwood station?

 

[innsertnamehere]

They should push for full traffic light priority.

they already have that..

 

[ssiguy2]

If the city would allow total grade separation they could get a private company to pony up some funds for the line to help cover the cost. This is what they did for the Canada Line and why they got private sector money.........it allows the line to be automated saving the private company a small fortune on operating costs. This wouldn't work in Toronto because the morons at Metrolinx would probably still want someone on board at $40/hr to make sure the doors close.

The stupid people who demand a person to make sure the doors close must never take elevators.

 

[officedweller]

Guys, the fact that a private sector company will run the line means NOTHING other than the fact that it will be private sector employees running the line instead of the TTC. Apart from that the system will look like a seamless integrationg with the TTC from the customer's perspective.

The only thing that the private sector will be in charge of after construciton is complete, is running and maintaining the line. The fare and other issues would be set by the province in a contract, where the company would presumably make a bonus if they exceed cost-recovery targets (hence the incentive to run the system more efficiently, without reducing the given service levels set forth in the agreement.)

This is a common practice throughout Asia, and even right here in Canada (VIVA York, Canada Line).

So for all of you wondering if the private sector will push for grade separation, that will not happen. The money is already allocated to what is planned and the agreement will be based off of that.

This is often referred to as a Design Build Finance Operate Maintain contract. Where the money is eventually paid to the private sector for the total cost, but in the interim it is designed, built and financed by the private industry to reduce the upfront capital costs to the government. Another advantage with this is expertise, since the private sector will be building the line, it makes sense to have the same company design it for their own optimal operating preocedures. This allows the private sector to tailor and build the line at a better quality and more efficient design that will ultimately help them make better returns when they run it.

I for one truly think this is a very good way of building rapid transit, and would hope that future expansion is done in the same way. As for existing lines, I doubt much savings would be had at this point by putting private sector employees to run it.

Agreed with what you've said - but it'll be the push-pull between the existing design and the private partner's profits. i.e. how much will the operator-driven manual design impact the profitability (ie. amount of Provincial subsidy) and will that force a redesign (to full grade separation)?

 

[Wrenkin]

If the city would allow total grade separation they could get a private company to pony up some funds for the line to help cover the cost. This is what they did for the Canada Line and why they got private sector money.........it allows the line to be automated saving the private company a small fortune on operating costs. This wouldn't work in Toronto because the morons at Metrolinx would probably still want someone on board at $40/hr to make sure the doors close.

The stupid people who demand a person to make sure the doors close must never take elevators.

So you would save staffing costs buy burying the line for the full length? Or building underpasses at every cross street? Or what? Elevated guideway? I don't see how you would save money in the medium term.

 

[rbt]

So you would save staffing costs buy burying the line for the full length? Or building underpasses at every cross street? Or what? Elevated guideway? I don't see how you would save money in the medium term.

You can pay a ton of people for $100M/year (10% return on $1B capital); not to mention the additional maintenance budget required to maintain a burried corridor which is around $5M/km for the TTC.

In short, grade separation to enable automation is not a money savings idea.

 

[sixrings]

You can pay a ton of people for $100M/year (10% return on $1B capital); not to mention the additional maintenance budget required to maintain a burried corridor which is around $5M/km for the TTC.

In short, grade separation to enable automation is not a money savings idea.

Maybe this way they will be able to get through an elevated line which connects with the srt and uses srt type trains then they would not need to redo the srt stations and if they doubled the amount of people using the line that's obviously double the revenue. I'm just thinking outloud and maybe from a personal perspective am bias towards that idea as I see the west needing to be grade seperated as well. Then metrolinx could use the lrt trains from this line on something like hurontario and rebidding for srt type trains. Its asking a lot I understand but one can hope for some positives with this new announcement. I always wanted the eglinton and srt line to interline. I didn't think it needed to be barried like rob ford and some nimbys thought but it would still be nice to be grade seperated.

 

[innsertnamehere]

You can pay a ton of people for $100M/year (10% return on $1B capital); not to mention the additional maintenance budget required to maintain a burried corridor which is around $5M/km for the TTC.

In short, grade separation to enable automation is not a money savings idea.

you don't seem to realize that it would be elevated rather than underground. that would probably be about a $300,000,000 upgrade, so about $30 million a year. plus it would provide greater ridership, meaning less subsidy.

 

[rbt]

you don't seem to realize that it would be elevated rather than underground.

Somehow I don't think Council will be too interested in an above-ground option in order to help with private partner profit. They stand a much better chance of being re-elected if they vote against such a proposal.

I would argue that you don't see to realize the political realities tied to that option.

 

[sixrings]

Somehow I don't think Council will be too interested in an above-ground option in order to help with private partner profit. They stand a much better chance of being re-elected if they vote against such a proposal.

I would argue that you don't see to realize the political realities tied to that option.

Typically rbt I totally agree with your posts. But going through the golden mile I don't see where the nimbyism will come from that may cost politicians their careers. If ever a part of town made sense to go ahead elevated with out much nimbys to fight against it, it would be this section of eglinton. I'd argue that the lrt in median would have more nimbys from the car dealerships in the area than a elevated rail which wouldn't effect them.

 

[rbt]

Typically rbt I totally agree with your posts. But going through the golden mile I don't see where the nimbyism will come from that may cost politicians their careers. If ever a part of town made sense to go ahead elevated with out much nimbys to fight against it, it would be this section of eglinton. I'd argue that the lrt in median would have more nimbys from the car dealerships in the area than a elevated rail which wouldn't effect them.

It's less to do with the part of town and more just the general direction that Canada as a whole is going politically.

Various unions are going to try to tarnish the project just because it is P3 (including operating) and staff will likely not be unionized. The country (particularaly city centers) are strong supporters of Federal NDP at the moment.

Media will paint it as the little guy (there will be a few nimby's) against some random foreign company milking profits from the city.

Councillors stand to gain nothing by supporting an elevated structure less than a year before re-election. 1/3rd of council will vote against it just because of the way Ford treated the project earlier in his term; regardless of the cost/benefits to the city.


My opinion would be different if we had a Conservative majority in Ontario because council really wouldn't matter; but we don't (yet) and McGuinty has bent over backward to try and support councils will.

 

[sixrings]

I don't necessarily see the huge support for ndps and liberals that you do. In the last election it showed how much people were not happy with mcguinty with that minority. As for our city mayor. Conservatives will even admit that RF is incompetant but that doesn't mean that they will vote for a liberal or a ndp. Stintz looks like our future mayor and she will be conserative. As for liberal people which includes myself. I think there are many liberals who believe that the unions have taken too much control. Police is my biggest union frustration as well as TTC booth people. But that's a personal bias because I don't necessarily trust cops and I think the ttc service is complete crap. Its not that difficult to be polite is it. But they don't need to because of the unions. But hey that's just my perception of what's happened recently. I don't see a liberal winning next as mayor at least.

 

[ssiguy2]

So you would save staffing costs buy burying the line for the full length? Or building underpasses at every cross street? Or what? Elevated guideway? I don't see how you would save money in the medium term.

No.

What I have ALWAYS stated would be the best option for the Eglinton Crosstown is to combine it with the existing SRT using the existing SkyTrain technology. The TTC is going to be spending nearly $1 billion on changing the SRT to LRT. Changing it to LRT is actually the most expensive option and has the lowest capacity of subway/metro, SkyTrain, monorail, or LRT. This is because LRT is the only one of those technologies that requires a complete revamp of the existing RT stations due to the overhead power catenarys which requires "raising the roof" of the stations.......expensive and time consuming.

No other city on the planet would tear down a rapid transit system and replace with one which will have lower capacity and yet more expensive to run. The only logical cost effective option for the Eglinton/Scar is to extend the SRT northeast to Malvern and west along Eglinton. They could elevate the northeast section and elevate along Eglinton until roughly Don Mills. This would result in twice the capacity, a far more reliable system, better service levels, and cost much less to operate. Much of the needed funds for the whole line would come from the savings of not having to revamp all the stations and not having to build a totally new LRT garage/maintenance centre. Simply improve the short turns to accomodate the MK111 cars and add the heating mechanism on the rails and Bob's your uncle.

Vancouver's SkyTrain has proven itself to be very cost effective, reliable, frequent, fast, safe, and with the new MK111 trains very comfortable, smoothe, quiet, and pleasant.

Would I use the SkyTrain if starting from scratch?....No but because much of the line is built then it only makes sense to extend the line. The reality of the situation is that Eglinton requires a completly grade separated line. Due to the savings of not having to spend a fortune {and a lot of time} by not changing the SRT to LRT, Metrolinx could very easily to get a company to chip in a hefty amount to create a seemless, grade separated Eg/Scar/Mal line to help build and run it as they would see real returns due to being automated.

It's funny, people continually denegrate the Canada Line due to it's small stations and those are very valid concerns. At the same time, Toronto will be spending 3 times as much on a line that will have lower capacity, speed, reliability, and be more expensive to run. This is why Vancouver has expanded it's rapid transit by 70 km in the last 25 years and Toronto has by only 7km.

 

[car4041]

No other city on the planet would tear down a rapid transit system and replace with one which will have lower capacity

Why do you keep saying the capacity will be lower? The conversion of the RT to LRT involves a huge increase in capacity. The LRT cars will be wider than the RT cars and the trains will be longer.