[UntitledCyclist]

Go ahead and watch it. Miller didn't say much of anything objectionable. The only one who got egg on his face was John L., when he said that regime changes in Toronto city council have been a big problem, but changes in the Ontario government have never really impacted planning. He got challenged by everyone on that. Of course, this being a Canadian panel show and not American, everyone kept things cordial and friendly.

You must not have seen the horrific show with Adam Vaughan and the head of Ontario Place for All. Vaughan talked over, belittled and snarked his female opponent into stunned silence. It was awful. She clearly wasn't prepped to debate lifelong guttersnipe politician, but Paikin did little to help her either, and really it was Vaughan showing what an ass he was and is.

 

[nfitz]

As I have noted previously, it is unwise (used in lieu of a stronger term) to attempt to predict demand on Line 5 when Ontario Line will be coming along, when the original intent for Transit City had rail to Thorncliffe in a far future Phase 2.

That's true - but I don't think that the Don Mills LRT or the Ontario Line not being open yet will increase ridership that much from that projected. In fact, it may even be lower, as in the situation, there'll be less people transferring (in AM peak) from southbound Don Mills to westbound Eglinton. Though the pickup at Don Valley station was only estimated to be a net 200 passengers, westbound in am peak. Amazingly, eastbound it drops from 1800 to 900 riders per hour in AM peak - perhaps the counterflow students.

Either way, the peak point is at Cedarvale - not Yonge.

However, even it does saturate in places faster than more vehicles can be put in service… we can operate buses in those areas and accommodate thousands of additional riders who are on short trips like Brentcliffe to Leaside High School!

I see no world where it would be more efficient to add buses, or that massively surplus capacity of Line 5 will be exceeded!

 

[TOtramz]

June 7
Looks like next to no testing taking place or TTC getting close to do 60-90 simulations testing before the line opens in Sept for the line today.

Got off the DVP and headed east only to see red lights for the crossover/storage area that was follow by a crew working on the eastbound platform around the ramp area. Stop off at BK to garb something to go and still haven't seen any cars. As I waiting for my order, an eastbound train past BK. Got my order a minute later and went out to have a look at the line to see if an westbound train was coming, but saw done. That eastbound train was still sitting at the station. A couple minutes later, it got a green for the crossover area and then crawl all the way to Birchmount where I lost sight of it. After 10 minutes wait to see any train in any direction, drove off to where I was planning on going to in the first place.

only 14 days remaining to start the 2 board testing period for a September opening!!

Do you guys think Ford will officially announce the handover to the TTC before the simulated service?

 

[Thaboss]

You must not have seen the horrific show with Adam Vaughan and the head of Ontario Place for All. Vaughan talked over, belittled and snarked his female opponent into stunned silence. It was awful. She clearly wasn't prepped to debate lifelong guttersnipe politician, but Paikin did little to help her either, and really it was Vaughan showing what an ass he was and is.

I'm not going to lie, but if you're going to advocate for something like she does, go onto TV against a rep. Of sed company your advocating against as the ultimate boogyman, fail to come correct with your facts, and meanwhile, the advocate of the the business knows their facts.... Then i'm sorry but your oposition to that project will comes across as ill informed and emotional charged because reasons...and you will absolutely get cooked on live television. Emotional appeals with no basis in fact will only get you so far...

Steve had nothing to do with all the above.


Back to the topic at hand. I wish there was better coverage of transit in ontario media...but i guess it's not that sexy lol

 

[A 6264]

You must not have seen the horrific show with Adam Vaughan and the head of Ontario Place for All. Vaughan talked over, belittled and snarked his female opponent into stunned silence. It was awful. She clearly wasn't prepped to debate lifelong guttersnipe politician, but Paikin did little to help her either, and really it was Vaughan showing what an ass he was and is.

Welllll... I didn't say the show was ALWAYS cordial, what I suggested was Canadian shows tend to encourage it, while American shows prefer outrage, because Ratings. I shouldn't generalize, and in my post, I didn't.

 

[Mind_the_gap]

June 6, 2025:

The new sign is up for Science Centre Don Valley station:

Credit: @James1256

Not advocating for vandalism...

But, wouldn't it be nice if just something happened to one to eight of the glass panels covered by that utterly awful sticker, so they'd be forced to do this properly.

Did they even cut the sticker between panels for when one inevitibly breaks?

In all seriousness, this defeats the purpose of the glass canopy by covering a vital part of the canopy, and could even pose a security risk by not being able to see into the station from the Don Mills side.

Back in the day, you could pay a homeless person X dollars to throw a brick through the window....

 

[Civdis]

Old story as well water under the bridge and maps don't tell the full story in the first place. You need to walk, use transit, cycle or drive the route as well photograph various location to understand the corridor in the first plac

Ok, but I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying the current at grade design east of Laird is fine? It just seems weird that we built a quasi-subway line in the west end that turns into a high order street car line in the east. I will wait to see how it operates before passing final judgement on the wisdom of this design.

 

[Reecemartin]

Since it bears repeating......

A two-car coupled train every 8 minutes will be sufficient to handle the loads that were carried on the buses during the morning rush hour prior to COVID or even prior to when construction started.

The service on day 1 will be more frequent than that at rush hour.

Dan

I think it's worth remembering that the a big part of the point of creating a rapid transit line here is not just added capacity but an improved level of service. Obviously bus ridership is an indicator of corridor demand, but demand is not fixed. If Eglinton is a far superior level of service (as we should hope, and it certainly will be on parts of the route) to the existing buses which (having regularly used Toronto suburban buses - including on Eglinton) are slow and uncomfortable and sometimes inconsistent - we should expect a significant ridership uplift. In addition I of all people don't like the "people way prefer buses to trains" line - but it also isn't totally false.

Again, it wouldn't be the first time a rail service replaced a bus and ridership went way up, especially in the Canadian context where people are generally very open to taking transit.

As I have noted previously, it is unwise (used in lieu of a stronger term) to attempt to predict demand on Line 5 when Ontario Line will be coming along, when the original intent for Transit City had rail to Thorncliffe in a far future Phase 2.

However, even it does saturate in places faster than more vehicles can be put in service… we can operate buses in those areas and accommodate thousands of additional riders who are on short trips like Brentcliffe to Leaside High School! There isn’t a non-compete.

I agree that it's hard to predict demand, but I think lots of it will be even just on the "subway" section west of Laird. Being so central to the network (enabling journeys between Yonge and Spadina, but also the Kitchener line), its going to be heavily used - even if a lot of traffic is on and off and that means efficient vehicle utilization, we know that the doors on these vehicles aren't fast, and boarding will not be as fast as the subway, so I don't think expecting pressure is unreasonable.

Of course we can run buses, but Yonge is a super crowded rail line and we oddly don't run a ton of buses there. Eglinton also has a fairly tight stop spacing even in the subway section, so if we have to run a lot of bus service anytime soon spacing won't be ideal.

I see no world where it would be more efficient to add buses, or that massively surplus capacity of Line 5 will be exceeded!

I think if any proclamation was unwise it would be suggesting Line 5 will have massive surplus capacity and I can only imagine this is an attempt at being edgy. L5 has substantially less capacity than the existing subway, but will cut a direct and fairly fast route across the centre of the city (which in many places is densifying more than along say Danforth or parts of Bloor), even if demand was 50% what it is on Bloor the line would be very full!

What I will say is I know ridership estimates have been revised upwards, and the planned frequencies have increased over time (which is good irregardless). But it wouldn't be the first time we've guessed demand incorrectly.

Anyways all of this is conjecture, the line will open soon enough and then in the coming decade we will see firsthand how things shake out. I don't want the line to be painfully crowded, it would make using it less attractive and uncomfortable and feel like we really missed an opportunity on a key corridor, I'm just . . . concerned. We will see.

 

[nfitz]

I think if any proclamation was unwise it would be suggesting Line 5 will have massive surplus capacity and I can only imagine this is an attempt at being edgy. L5 has substantially less capacity than the existing subway, but will cut a direct and fairly fast route across the centre of the city (which in many places is densifying more than along say Danforth or parts of Bloor), even if demand was 50% what it is on Bloor the line would be very full!

Edgy?

No, I think there's huge surplus capacity (not as much in what the present vehicles can provide, but if they ran full 3-car trains every 2 minutes.

What I will say is I know ridership estimates have been revised upwards ...

Can you provide evidence of this highly speculative claim? The highest (future!) number I've seen is about 8,000 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd) in one of the RTPs; and I think that's based on higher speeds between Don Valley and Kennedy that we are going to see. If each 3-car train can carry about 500 people (to be conservative), that can be met with 16 trains an hour. That means they have about double the existing capacity.

You might argue that they can't run that frequently east of Don Valley (Leslie can be fixed if it comes to that). That's fine, ridership there is lower, and they can deliver where there is the highest demand - underground.

... I don't want the line to be painfully crowded, it would make using it less attractive and uncomfortable and feel like we really missed an opportunity on a key corridor, I'm just . . . concerned. We will see.

In the next decade! That does not seem realistic. Before the end of the century - maybe.

Ultimately (decades from now) the solution is more lines, not bigger lines. I'd love to see lines on St. Clair and Lawrence (well loved ... I'll be dead by then).

 

[Allandale25]

What I will say is I know ridership estimates have been revised upwards, and the planned frequencies have increased over time (which is good irregardless). But it wouldn't be the first time we've guessed demand incorrectly.

Can you provide evidence of this highly speculative claim? The highest (future!) number I've seen is about 8,000 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd) in one of the RTPs; and I think that's based on higher speeds between Don Valley and Kennedy that we are going to see. If each 3-car train can carry about 500 people (to be conservative), that can be met with 16 trains an hour. That means they have about double the existing capacity.

Maybe the reference to estimates is specific to Line 5, but on a general basis, this exchange reminded me of this:

Rail News - Amtrak's year-old Borealis route exceeds ridership expectations. For Railroad Career Professionals

www.progressiverailroading.com

Realize it's apples to oranges, and another jurisdiction, though.

 

[nfitz]

Maybe the reference to estimates is specific to Line 5, but on a general basis, this exchange reminded me of this:

Rail News - Amtrak's year-old Borealis route exceeds ridership expectations. For Railroad Career Professionals

www.progressiverailroading.com

Realize it's apples to oranges, and another jurisdiction, though.

Indeed, very different. The Borealis is just an extra daily train from Chicago to Minneapolis (St. Paul) on the same route as the existing Empire Builder that keeps going from Minneapolis to Seattle. It would be interesting to see how much of the extra ridership is people switching which train they take - though as ridership is still recovering since Covid, it will be hard to tell.

 

[Reecemartin]

Edgy?

No, I think there's huge surplus capacity (not as much in what the present vehicles can provide, but if they ran full 3-car trains every 2 minutes.

Can you provide evidence of this highly speculative claim? The highest (future!) number I've seen is about 8,000 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd) in one of the RTPs; and I think that's based on higher speeds between Don Valley and Kennedy that we are going to see. If each 3-car train can carry about 500 people (to be conservative), that can be met with 16 trains an hour. That means they have about double the existing capacity.
...

Yes, edgy, my only other experience interacting with me you made a really vile insult towards me, so maybe I'm misreading what I'm saying, but I can only go off of the vibes I've got from you in the past.

I think it's extremely unliked ECLRT will ever be running with 2 minute headways. The vehicles and track layout will make that very challenging - the current LRVs have like half the door density of a TR, and the doors take longer to cycle. There are also various other technical problems. Three car trains are possible, and but we will need more trains to operate them at reasonably high frequency.

The claim is not highly speculative, there was a suggested frequency initially, and that was increased (to 3 minutes at peak I believe which I think might be hard to operate with the potential dwell times of the trains - certainly this level of frequency with coupled low floor LRVs will be unique in North America) for reasons of expected demand, lots of people working on the proj. have suggested to me they expect to need more LRVs in short order (beyond what will obviously be needed for the extension).

Ultimately, the capacity chosen for the project was based on planning projections, my only argument is that I am skeptical that these particular projections accurately forecast demand, certainly given the significant ways the city has changed in the last decade, but also because I think they are overly pessimistic in their beliefs about peoples willingness to get on transit. Across Canada I have seen time and again that people are much more willing than we think to get onboard a compelling transit service. I know I frequently compare to the Canada line, but thats simply because it has the same nameplate capacity, and if its well over 8000 ppdph of demand knowing that corridor and knowing this corridor I am hard pressed to think Eglinton won't also move more people than that. There are a lot more feeder buses on Eglinton, and more density along the entire corridor as well - doubly so with what's being planned on the Golden Mile etc.

If anything remember that demand for the UP Express at it's initial nosebleed fare was also projected to be X, and that projection was very wrong (in the other direction).

 

[ThenWhat]

Not sure if this was discussed previously. How bicycle-friendly will Line 5 be?

Over the last fifteen years the city has adopted a number of strategies to encourage bicycle use. Has that had any effect in planning and implementing Line 5?

Is there any room to bring a bicycle on board without interfering with other passengers? Will it be allowed? Will the rules be the same as for streetcars (i.e. not in the rush hour)? Or will TTC find a way to accommodate bicycles even in the rush hour, as the buses along Eglinton currently do?

 

[A 6264]

Being only an occasional user of the Eglinton East bus route, it's been my observation that there is often a half hour wait during mid-day, during which time some 5 "sorry out of service" buses pass by (I call them Sorry Buses) before we finally see an in-service bus, which is often so crowded that I wait a little longer for the next one. Part of the reason, I presume, is that if there is any construction going on, it causes a bottleneck, and the whole line gets messed up. But I am a little paranoid sometimes, wondering if the TTC might be deliberately under-servicing the line, so that when line 5 finally opens, they hope we will all say how much better it is than the lousy bus service we used to have. In which case, I am not inclined to compare current bus ridership to the future light rail, because the difference might be deliberate and strategic. Like I said, I'm paranoid...

 

[A 6264]

Not sure if this was discussed previously. How bicycle-friendly will Line 5 be?

Over the last fifteen years the city has adopted a number of strategies to encourage bicycle use. Has that had any effect in planning and implementing Line 5?

Is there any room to bring a bicycle on board without interfering with other passengers? Will it be allowed? Will the rules be the same as for streetcars (i.e. not in the rush hour)? Or will TTC find a way to accommodate bicycles even in the rush hour, as the buses along Eglinton currently do?

That's a good question. I used to see a lot of courier bikes on the subway last year, but I notice there are recent signs at subway entrances saying no E-bikes are allowed in the subway, and I presume that means, at all times. Is this something new? And what about regular non-powered bikes, are the okay, or are all bikes banned, and the TTC is just presuming all bikes these days are E-bikes?