[jmi22]

There's no destinations on Eglinton;

This is a wild statement. Surely you are referring to Eglinton Avenue, Mississauga? Besides the tens of thousands of people living along Eglinton, plus the tens of thousands more to come in tower developments, the street holds one of the cities secondary office/commercial hubs, hundreds of storefronts and soon to be seven rapid transit connections. If Eglinton 'has no destinations', neither does Bloor Street.

 

[kaptrice]

Is the current consensus basically that there are not enough vehicles to run 3-car trains in the currently if capacity is an issue on opening day?

Not at the same headway that is planned for two-LRV trains at peak.

 

[kaptrice]

This is a wild statement. Surely you are referring to Eglinton Avenue, Mississauga? Besides the tens of thousands of people living along Eglinton, plus the tens of thousands more to come in tower developments, the street holds one of the cities secondary office/commercial hubs, hundreds of storefronts and soon to be seven rapid transit connections. If Eglinton 'has no destinations', neither does Bloor Street.

There are a couple of Employment Areas with a total of ~15,000 jobs between them along Eglinton, plus as many again midtown. Altogether this is about 1/20 the number concentrated downtown. It's hyperbole to say there are "no" destinations, but to a rough approximation there are no destinations - or at least no one big destination. Moreover, unlike the B-D, the connections are spaced around pretty evenly - someone downtown-bound might transfer at Mt. Dennis, Cedarvale, Yonge-Eglinton, (in the future) Don Valley, or even onto the B-D at Kennedy. That keeps the trips short and makes people's trips tend not to overlap, unlike Lines 1 and 2 where people are largely bound for the same place in the morning. And it's for this reason the BCA modelled overall annual boardings nearly 80% that of Line 2 in 2021 for the ECLRT, and at the same time showed the ultimately selected design option at about 1/4th the actual capacity.

Whether 1/4th the capacity will be enough is yet to be seen. The BCA also presented the line as being at 90% capacity at opening in the AM peak, which I figure must be rather unpleasant based on figuring 142 people inside one of the vehicles. Maybe if travel demand changes have shifted enough it will be alright. Maybe the modelling could be a miss and the thing will be a hell-train every day from the onset. Only one way to find out...

 

[rbt]

This is a wild statement. Surely you are referring to Eglinton Avenue, Mississauga? Besides the tens of thousands of people living along Eglinton, plus the tens of thousands more to come in tower developments, the street holds one of the cities secondary office/commercial hubs, hundreds of storefronts and soon to be seven rapid transit connections. If Eglinton 'has no destinations', neither does Bloor Street.

Aside from U of T, Bloor also has very few destinations and is largely a route used by convenience. Evidence of this is that over 2/3rds of AM-Peak Bloor riders transfer to another mode to finish their journey. If Bloor was closed and Elginton LRT was open, most riders would be able to reach their destination, albeit less conveniently. When the Yonge/University loop is closed [weekend work has done this] ridership of Line 2 plummets because people either choose not to make the trip or they use an alternative mode of transportation (drive) as they cannot reach their destination comfortably (bus replacement service is rarely sufficient).

Eglinton LRT is also route of convenience rather than a route of necessity. If it feels crowded riders will find alternative routes, like taking their southbound bus to Line 2 instead of transferring at Eglinton, but they will continue making their trip on TTC. The answer to Eglinton LRT being at capacity is probably a Wilson LRT or Lawrence LRT, NOT increasing capacity of Eglinton.

[Rant]
Toronto builds far too few RT projects and what we do build is several times the capacity required to service the streets it is on (relies on feeder services): the capcity is used because of the lack of alternatives NOT because it's actually the ideal route for the rider. Stations are most of the cost of these projects and the cost of a station, due to building code, is directly related to depth and the crush-capacity of 2 trains in an emergency evacuation scenario [ridership of the specific station is rarely a consideration in the size of the station]. Many many more major roads in Toronto could have RT on it if we scaled back from the idea that RT must carry 30,000 pphpd with staff at every entrance.
[/rant]

 

[evandyk]

There is probably not enough cars to do that.

Because it's completely not necessary.

I don't understand pretending to be an expert and being so ignorant.

I've seen mainly one person constantly tweeting about how it will be over capacity from day 1, but I haven't actually seen any analysis that would support that conclusion. I'm not even sure that person has the data or tools to do that analysis. It seems to be just vibes.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The Crosstown is expected to be *well* below capacity on opening day. Given reduced peak transit volumes coming post-COVID, this is doubly-true. The TTC has been in active discussions with Metrolinx to actually run well above capacity-matching frequencies just so the line meets minimum frequency standards.

Capacity on the Crosstown won't be a problem for a long while, especially without the western extension.

As the Golden Mile builds out over the long term it may become problematic on the surface section, but I've had discussions elsewhere about how I think developers are being overly ambitious in the Golden Mile and how that stretch is unlikely to reach full buildout for several generations given general growth patterns.

 

[MisterF]

From what I've seen from his YouTube channel, Reece having questionable takes is nothing new. I think the bigger controversy after it opens will be how slow the surface sections are, and all the stopping at red lights.

There's no destinations on Eglinton; meaning the majority of riders will be transferring to another line [meaning Yonge or Spadina].

Or the Barrie line, Stouffville line, Kitchener line, or Ontario line. Obviously those lines aren't what they will be in a decade, but as they get completed/expanded there will be lots of options for transfers to other lines.

I'm not sure I agree that there are no destinations on Eglinton.

 

[Allandale25]

The Crosstown is expected to be *well* below capacity on opening day. Given reduced peak transit volumes coming post-COVID, this is doubly-true. The TTC has been in active discussions with Metrolinx to actually run well above capacity-matching frequencies just so the line meets minimum frequency standards.

Capacity on the Crosstown won't be a problem for a long while, especially without the western extension.

As the Golden Mile builds out over the long term it may become problematic on the surface section, but I've had discussions elsewhere about how I think developers are being overly ambitious in the Golden Mile and how that stretch is unlikely to reach full buildout for several generations given general growth patterns.

There's also this as a contextual piece. Not saying it will or won't be the case for Crosstown, but interesting and not often brought up by those worried about capacity....(I'm not sure if there's a similar one for population & units).

 

[innsertnamehere]

There's also this as a contextual piece. Not saying it will or won't be the case for Crosstown, but interesting and not often brought up by those worried about capacity....(I'm not sure if there's a similar one for population & units).

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there are a lot of reasons and trends as to why that graph occured - those original job projections assumed jobs would shift from the downtown to the 416 centres in the 1980's and 1990's. Instead they shifted to 905 business parks.

Since 2011 trends have actually generally reversed, with most job growth occurring downtown. New transit capacity is not needed to traverse the 416 or even 905, as planned in the early 2000's when job growth was still focused in the suburbs, but rather is needed to transport workers downtown.

In this way Eglinton will serve as feeder into the OL and Yonge Line. There is a decent amount of employment along Eglinton, especially on it's far west end in the Mississauga employment park, so it won't operate exclusively in that manner, but there will be a strong correlation to that trip pattern.

Of course COVID has thrown even these patterns into a loop as well. office commuters have dropped dramatically and now travel patterns focus more on blue-collar and healthcare work and recreational trips - a wildly different commuting pattern than what has historically dominated.

 

[nfitz]

I've seen mainly one person constantly tweeting about how it will be over capacity from day 1, but I haven't actually seen any analysis that would support that conclusion. I'm not even sure that person has the data or tools to do that analysis. It seems to be just vibes.

All one has to do is read the original EA and just see how grossly oversized it is (which I think is a good thing for future growth - otherwise you end up with the disastrous Canada Line scenario where the 40-metre "trains" and platforms are pushing ultimate capacity even now - and may be over-capacity too soon.

I must not have seen those tweets.

there are a lot of reasons and trends as to why that graph occured - those original job projections assumed jobs would shift from the downtown to the 416 centres in the 1980's and 1990's. Instead they shifted to 905 business parks.

Since 2011 trends have actually generally reversed, with most job growth occurring downtown. New transit capacity is not needed to traverse the 416 or even 905, as planned in the early 2000's when job growth was still focused in the suburbs, but rather is needed to transport workers downtown.

Those centres have become more residential than I think they originally anticipated.

I think in the longer term it will work. Though the answer to the then controversial 1990s discussion about which gets built first (Eglinton West, Sheppard East, or the Relief Line) seems to be that they should have built them in the complete reverse order (Relief ... Eglinton ... Sheppard). With a possible downgrade of Sheppard to LRT.

I'm a bit concerned about the intermediate-term capacity of the Ontario Line - though the 90-second headways go a long way to achieve that - about 33% more trains, for 2/3 the platform length - but now with 80-metre platforms instead of 100-metre, I fear they might have not allowed for future growth beyond the first 2 or 3 decades. Perhaps we'll have a Relief Relief line one day. Though I'm not convinced that the current projects will provide enough relief for the Yonge portion of Line 1 - I can see needing another line (perhaps express!) adjacent to it.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

All one has to do is read the original EA and just see how grossly oversized it is (which I think is a good thing for future growth - otherwise you end up with the disastrous Canada Line scenario where the 40-metre "trains" and platforms are pushing ultimate capacity even now - and may be over-capacity too soon.

I must not have seen those tweets.


Those centres have become more residential than I think they originally anticipated.

I think in the longer term it will work. Though the answer to the then controversial 1990s discussion about which gets built first (Eglinton West, Sheppard East, or the Relief Line) seems to be that they should have built them in the complete reverse order (Relief ... Eglinton ... Sheppard). With a possible downgrade of Sheppard to LRT.

I'm a bit concerned about the intermediate-term capacity of the Ontario Line - though the 90-second headways go a long way to achieve that - about 33% more trains, for 2/3 the platform length - but now with 80-metre platforms instead of 100-metre, I fear they might have not allowed for future growth beyond the first 2 or 3 decades. Perhaps we'll have a Relief Relief line one day. Though I'm not convinced that the current projects will provide enough relief for the Yonge portion of Line 1 - I can see needing another line (perhaps express!) adjacent to it.

Are there any provisions for platform extensions on either line in the station box design? The Canada Line was designed to go to 50m (which isn't much, but would allow a short middle car), and the Confederation Line has provisions for 120m.

 

[nfitz]

Are there any provisions for platform extensions on either line in the station box design? The Canada Line was designed to go to 50m (which isn't much, but would allow a short middle car), and the Confederation Line has provisions for 120m.

My understanding is to go for the the extra 10 metres, that some of the stations would need extensive work. It's not like Line 4 where they could probably knock down the cinder block wall overnight.

 

[robmausser]

Are there any provisions for platform extensions on either line in the station box design? The Canada Line was designed to go to 50m (which isn't much, but would allow a short middle car), and the Confederation Line has provisions for 120m.

Yes, ish.

The actual physical station box is about one more LRT train longer than the platform.

However, no provision was put in place to easily use it, like with the Sheppard Line (there is a fake wall covering up some of the platform)

There are things like maintenence rooms, ventilation systems, stairwells etc at the end of the station boxes in some cases.

Anything is possible, for a price and these things could be moved and the station platforms extended, but it would be a big project, and not simply knocking down a wall.

EDIT: im not sure re-reading if you are asking for Ontario Line or Eglinton Line. I answered per the Crosstown as this is the forum for it.

 

[TOtramz]

I visited eglinton ave for about 45 minutes in total spread out over a morning and afternoon session. I spotted 1 train moving slowly in the morning and noticed workers sitting at the surface stops.

In the afternoon, no trains spotted. I’m guessing training new operator does not require constant running trains.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

EDIT: im not sure re-reading if you are asking for Ontario Line or Eglinton Line. I answered per the Crosstown as this is the forum for it.

Both actually, at least that answers for the Crosstown, thx!