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From link.

Carrying Capacity (planned number of customers per vehicle)​

TTC SRT Car: 30 seated; 55 maximum (220 for a 4-car train)
TTC SRT car

TTC Bus: 36 seated; 51 maximum
TTC Bus


TTC LFLRV: 70 seated; 130 maximum
Low-Floor Light Rail vehicle

TTC T1 Subway Car: 66 seated; 167 maximum (1,000 for a 6-car train)
TTC T1 Subway car

TTC Toronto Rocket Car: 64-68 seated; 180 maximum (1,080 for a 6-car train)
TTC Toronto Rocket car


The capacity of a Flexity Freedom car on the Crosstown LRT should be similar to the LFLRV above TIMES the number of cars in a train. Could be 2 car or 3 car trains, which is between 260 to 360 maximum, which is more than the SRT train.
 
smallspy said:
It's complicated.

On a strictly operating number basis, that is true - the direct cost to operate the vehicles (operators, energy) is considerably lower for LRTs than it is for buses.

But if you factor in the cost of the fixed plant, and especially when the line (or sections of it) are grade separated, the numbers are not nearly so cut-and-dried. Especially when you consider that the TTC has to pay to maintain all of that infrastructure, whereas they don't pay for the roads.

Dan
Click to expand...

I see the point. However, it does have an impact on the desirability of the future LRT lines.

Eglinton is an odd duck, with so much of it running underground / elevated. The operational expenses will be much higher than for any surface line (and the benefits higher as well, but one can debate whether the benefits justify the costs). In any case, Eglinton is not to be compared to any other line.

But Finch? A very typical line, running almost entirely in the street median. The press release mentioned Finch for a possible delay, too.

If the operation of Finch LRT might have to be delayed due to the cost concerns, that definitely affects future LRT plans, and not in a good way.
 
I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but operator training for line 5 is expected to be ongoing by late 2023 and training for line 6 would be on around early 2024. Line 5 and 6 operators will both be expected to work for both lines.
 
Rainforest said:
I see the point. However, it does have an impact on the desirability of the future LRT lines.

Eglinton is an odd duck, with so much of it running underground / elevated. The operational expenses will be much higher than for any surface line (and the benefits higher as well, but one can debate whether the benefits justify the costs). In any case, Eglinton is not to be compared to any other line.

But Finch? A very typical line, running almost entirely in the street median. The press release mentioned Finch for a possible delay, too.

If the operation of Finch LRT might have to be delayed due to the cost concerns, that definitely affects future LRT plans, and not in a good way.
Click to expand...
Right now, TTC is screw for operation cost regardless of mode as well construction projects along with buying new equipment..

Waterfront East LRT is up for funding in either Oct or Nov at Executive Level and then to council the following month. I am expecting it will be shelve for a few more years like it has since 2014 with a timeline close to 2040 than the 2031-35 current time frame for operation.

You got the Hillcrest yard expansion to house the new 60 cars for 512, 511 and 510 that will be here by 2025 when the final car arrives. 4604 will enter service in the next few day with 4605 arriving in Sept

Ford not going to fund streetcars cost since he hates them in the first place.
 
Yahe said:
I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but operator training for line 5 is expected to be ongoing by late 2023 and training for line 6 would be on around early 2024. Line 5 and 6 operators will both be expected to work for both lines.
Click to expand...
I guess since the TTC is operating the lines, it makes sense to share them between Eglinton and Finch for a larger, interchangeable pool.
 
SaugeenJunction said:
I guess since the TTC is operating the lines, it makes sense to share them between Eglinton and Finch for a larger, interchangeable pool.
Click to expand...
Also reassuring that they are neither treating the LRT lines as merely a variant of streetcar operations, nor entirely unrelated to each other with no possibility of intermingling anything.
 
Rainforest said:
One of the LRT tech selling points was that it will be cheaper to operate than the buses, on routes with high ridership. The number of LRT drivers needed is several times smaller than the number of bus drivers needed.

If that's not actually the case, then it will be hard to justify any new LRT line in the future, except Waterfront East.
Click to expand...
Something Steve Munro has brought up a while back is that "extra bus service" because of construction of the Crosstown is funded straight out of the construction capital budget for which the City can borrow money, and this means that bizarre scenarios can arise where the TTC "saves" money by late project delivery, and they can also juice that "extra" amount of service in the operating books because why not say that almost all service is "extra" and then shunt almost all operating expense of whole routes to a line item in the construction capital budget.

So there are possible accounting-based "savings" on the operations side every day of delay for Crosstown. It's not any real saving at all, but on the management books it looks good, which we know is what the current TTC loves because it means more future capital interest expense for the City, and why would TTC executives of today care about future 30-year bond issues?
 
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Jonny5 said:
Something Steve Munro has brought up a while back is that "extra bus service" because of construction of the Crosstown is funded straight out of the construction capital budget for which the City can borrow money, and this means that bizarre scenarios can arise where the TTC "saves" money by late project delivery, and they can also juice that "extra" amount of service in the operating books because why not say that almost all service is "extra" and then shunt almost all operating expense of whole routes to a line item in the construction capital budget.

So there are possible accounting-based "savings" on the operations side every day of delay for Crosstown. It's not any real saving at all, but on the management books it looks good, which we know is what the current TTC loves because it means more future capital interest expense for the City, and why would TTC executives of today care about future 30-year bond issues?
Click to expand...

That would be the most horrible scenario, if the LRTs (or at least the Finch LRT) can actually save some operating costs, but the accounting pecularities make it more desirable for the city to continue running buses.

Unfortunately, such situations do happen.
 
drum118 said:
Right now, TTC is screw for operation cost regardless of mode as well construction projects along with buying new equipment..

Waterfront East LRT is up for funding in either Oct or Nov at Executive Level and then to council the following month. I am expecting it will be shelve for a few more years like it has since 2014 with a timeline close to 2040 than the 2031-35 current time frame for operation.

You got the Hillcrest yard expansion to house the new 60 cars for 512, 511 and 510 that will be here by 2025 when the final car arrives. 4604 will enter service in the next few day with 4605 arriving in Sept

Ford not going to fund streetcars cost since he hates them in the first place.
Click to expand...
Doug ford might hate streetcars, but I'm sure his developer buddies need them to sell condos in the downtown core. And we all know donations to the party means more than a personal hatred for streetcars. So he will have to fund them , even if he hates them.

He could have easily cancelled the order when his brother was Mayor , but didn't.

No one is a threat to the streetcar network for the next 20 years. Maybe with the exception of TTC and their operating procedures.
 
drum118 said:
Right now, TTC is screw for operation cost regardless of mode as well construction projects along with buying new equipment..

Waterfront East LRT is up for funding in either Oct or Nov at Executive Level and then to council the following month. I am expecting it will be shelve for a few more years like it has since 2014 with a timeline close to 2040 than the 2031-35 current time frame for operation.

You got the Hillcrest yard expansion to house the new 60 cars for 512, 511 and 510 that will be here by 2025 when the final car arrives. 4604 will enter service in the next few day with 4605 arriving in Sept

Ford not going to fund streetcars cost since he hates them in the first place.
Click to expand...
The problem with the waterfront East plans is that it can't afford to wait anymore. The amount of condos going up from QQeast down to Bayside is alarming and there's no TTC service around that area except for the 6 Bay bus. The "if you build it they will come" is being applied here and the QQEAST LRT needs to be built now. I seen a recent article saying that they're going to begin construction on the eastern portal going into Union station with a bigger entrance going to the underground streetcar loop. So we'll see how this all goes.
 
The REAL said:
The problem with the waterfront East plans is that it can't afford to wait anymore. The amount of condos going up from QQeast down to Bayside is alarming and there's no TTC service around that area except for the 6 Bay bus. The "if you build it they will come" is being applied here and the QQEAST LRT needs to be built now. I seen a recent article saying that they're going to begin construction on the eastern portal going into Union station with a bigger entrance going to the underground streetcar loop. So we'll see how this all goes.
Click to expand...
The extension was wanted by Waterfront Toronto in 2007 because of the developments and more so today.

Until they fill in the Jarvis Slip, QQ can't be extended to the New Cherry St. That is on the books to happen in the next year.

The Portals and the entrance to the tunnel is TTC responsibility and their cost to do it. There is no money in TTC budget to do the work now or the last 13 years after the EA was approved at all levels. Until the report goes to council to get funding to take the design up to 100% along with a funding timetable to build the portals if it gets approve, it a pipe dream of what it could look like in the future.

The rest of the extension is Waterfront cost with TTC supplying the trackwork which TTC doesn't have the funds to do it. TTC has talked about using buses in the guideway which is standard for TTC until funding of the tracks is obtain.

The City keeps saying the QQ is its top priority project for the last 10 years, but keep pushing it down the road.

The earliest QQ could be up and running if a tender is awarded next year is 2028/29 compared to the current timetable of 2030-35

Current plans call for the existing QQ station to remain as is which is a slap in the face of everyone, let alone the accessibility community being stuck with one elevator when it should be 4.
 
Admiral Beez said:
That’s just insane. Akin to me saying my family food budget has been rolled back by ignoring the furnace and roof replacement. If we’re this level of screwed we should have never built the LRT.
Click to expand...

Ford's 4 subway extensions are going to create some interesting financial issues in the future too. There's around $150M/year in subsidy to operate them and so far it appears the province expects TTC to cover most of that gap (similar contract to Eglinton and Finch, York gets part of the Yonge extension bill) and do it without a property tax increase.
 
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