[ARG1]

What I am saying is that NIMBYism cuts even in this case, and it isn't a good thing just because it aligns with your own preferences.

AoD

Is it NIMBYism or is it a lack of political will to actually provide TSP, because the pro LRT councilors are more interested in taking away lanes from Car users than to provide good transit. A major problem with the "anti TSP is pro Car" argument is that this isn't actually the case. TSP is a massive benefit to car users as it means those driving along Eglinton are more likely to encounter Green lights while driving along Eglinton, especially if the LRT is operating at higher frequencies. Plus Hurontario and Finch west will have TSP despite the areas those LRTs pass through (at least I'd assume) would have way more pro car NIMBYish tendancies.

If Car oriented NIMBYs had their way like you claim they are, we wouldn't be removing left turn lanes at most intersections, and we would have LRT + 3 lanes per direction on Eglinton like York Region is doing on Highway 7.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Is it NIMBYism or is it a lack of political will to actually provide TSP, because the pro LRT councilors are more interested in taking away lanes from Car users than to provide good transit. A major problem with the "anti TSP is pro Car" argument is that this isn't actually the case. TSP is a massive benefit to car users as it means those driving along Eglinton are more likely to encounter Green lights while driving along Eglinton, especially if the LRT is operating at higher frequencies. Plus Hurontario and Finch west will have TSP despite the areas those LRTs pass through (at least I'd assume) would have way more pro car NIMBYish tendancies.

Now you are blaming pro-LRT politicians for not providing TSP? Come on - AFAIK, the pro-subway fraction of the council is currently in power at the city, no?

AoD

 

[ARG1]

Now you are blaming pro-LRT politicians for not providing TSP? Come on.

AoD

I am. Where was Paul Ainslie complaining on twitter when it was announced that Eglinton won't have TSP, meanwhile he is more than happy to rant about how Doug Ford is burying Eglinton West.

 

[sixrings]

Now you are blaming pro-LRT politicians for not providing TSP? Come on - AFAIK, the pro-subway fraction of the council is currently in power at the city, no?

AoD

The good guys are in charge now. The bad guys were in charge when these decisions were made. It’s pretty simple.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I am. Where was Paul Ainslie complaining on twitter when it was announced that Eglinton won't have TSP, meanwhile he is more than happy to rant about how Doug Ford is burying Eglinton West.

So what if he doesn't complain on Twitter? Because he can dictate policy? What is the city council, and the mayor going to do about this issue of not having transit priority for a newly built transit line that can benefit from it - that is the question.

AoD

 

[ARG1]

So what if he doesn't complain on Twitter? Because he can dictate policy? What is the city council, and the mayor going to do about this issue of not having transit priority?

AoD

Last I checked not having TSP was a local decision done by the councilor in the area, presumably Michael Thompson. Eglinton East is actually TSP ready, but it won't be enabled on opening day. If there is anyone with the ability to do something, it would be the mayor and the city council.

 

[ARG1]

The good guys are in charge now. The bad guys were in charge when these decisions were made. It’s pretty simple.

The good guys are in charge now? Where? Not in City Council at least...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Last I checked not having TSP was a local decision done by the councilor in the area, presumably Michael Thompson. Eglinton East is actually TSP ready, but it won't be enabled on opening day. If there is anyone with the ability to do something, it would be the mayor and the city council.

Which is my point - city council and the mayor need to put money where their mouth is on TSP; and if as you say TSP is a local decision, give me a conjecture as to why a councillor wouldn't want it? Could it be, I don't know, NIMBYism and inconveniences to a segment of the constituents?

AoD

 

[ARG1]

Which is my point - city council and the mayor need to put money where their mouth is on TSP; and if as you say TSP is a local decision, give me a conjecture as to why a councillor wouldn't want it? Could it be, I don't know, NIMBYism and inconveniences to a segment of the constituents?

AoD

Ok, but can you also claim this is the same NIMBYism that buried the Scarborough LRT which was @sixrings original example. Tell me why pro-car Nimbys would care if the Scarborough LRT was a subway when that didn't even have a median segment? Perhaps its because it goes far deeper than just not wanting trains next to cars...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Ok, but can you also claim this is the same NIMBYism that buried the Scarborough LRT which was @sixrings original example. Tell me why pro-car Nimbys would care if the Scarborough LRT was a subway when that didn't even have a median segment? Perhaps its because it goes far deeper than just not wanting trains next to cars...

I don't subscribe to the notion that NIMBYism alone is the issue in the transit saga in Scarborough; having said so, can you explain to me why say ECWest is underground instead elevated? I can't think of that many alternate explanation other than it being NIMBYism.

So clearly NIMBYism cuts in many ways to the deteriment of implementing transit, but I am not sure why some forms of it is more acceptable than other - just because the outcomes aligns with one's priorities doesn't make it right or desirable.

AoD

 

[ARG1]

I don't subscribe to the notion that NIMBYism alone is the issue in the transit saga in Scarborough; having said so, can you explain to me why say ECWest is underground instead elevated?

AoD

Because when Toronto was studying the Eglinton West section of the line, the only allignments they studied were at grade and buried. This means that when Doug Ford got into office and wanted to get shovels in the ground while grade separating the corridor, the fastest option was to take the already studied underground allignment and run with it to get TBMs in the ground asap, instead of spending time doing studies for an above ground alignment, especially when you consider that if he doesn't get shovels in the ground by 2022, and he loses, we're likely going to go back to the at-grade allignment. This is why for projects like Yonge North which will likely get built no matter who is in power, he looks for shortcuts and cost savers even when they will increase the time it takes to get the project built (Keep in mind that the area the YNSE goes through are swing ridings so its not like he's doing this in areas where he has no chance of winning).

Same thing applies to the SSE, its only built the way it is because that's what's already been studied previously.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Because when Toronto was studying the Eglinton West section of the line, the only allignments they studied were at grade and buried. This means that when Doug Ford got into office and wanted to get shovels in the ground while grade separating the corridor, the fastest option was to take the already studied underground allignment and run with it to get TBMs in the ground asap, instead of spending time doing studies for an above ground alignment, especially when you consider that if he doesn't get shovels in the ground by 2022, and he loses, we're likely going to go back to the at-grade allignment.

You and I both known OL disproves that nonsense you just advanced.

AoD

 

[ARG1]

You and I both known OL disproves that nonsense you just advanced.

AoD

First you posted that response so quickly that I don't believe you could've read what I said that quickly to make a counter argument.

Second and most importantly, the Ontario Line was likely studied as an alternative long before Doug Ford got into power, and there is quite a bit of evidence pointing to this fact, namely a ton of open houses that were made during 2018 where Metrolinx was seemingly contemplating using rolling stock that weren't TRs. Furthermore if we compare Yonge North with the Ontario Line, it took 2.5 years for the Yonge North preliminary business case to be released where all they changed was that there is now an option where the subway goes outside after Royal Orchard, while the rest of the line is mostly in tact. Meanwhile the Ontario Line was announced and detailed plans were released less than a year after Ford got into office. I don't believe for a second that OL was Doug's idea or that he ordered a complete shift in Metrolinx and managed to pump stuff like this out that quickly. What most likely happened was that a light metro alternative was being developed internally as a solution to the escalating costs of the DRL (this is backed up by those late open houses), and when Doug got into office, Metrolinx came up to him and presented all of the different options for projects under his request, he saw the Ontario Line and its delicious cost per kilometer, and told Metrolinx to pursue that instead.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

First you posted that response so quickly that I don't believe you could've read what I said that quickly to make a counter argument.

Second and most importantly, the Ontario Line was likely studied as an alternative long before Doug Ford got into power, and there is quite a bit of evidence pointing to this fact, namely a ton of open houses that were made during 2018 where Metrolinx was seemingly contemplating using rolling stock that weren't TRs. Furthermore if we compare Yonge North with the Ontario Line, it took 2.5 years for the Yonge North preliminary business case to be released where all they changed was that there is now an option where the subway goes outside after Royal Orchard, while the rest of the line is mostly in tact. Meanwhile the Ontario Line was announced and detailed plans were released less than a year after Ford got into office. I don't believe for a second that OL was Doug's idea or that he ordered a complete shift in Metrolinx and managed to pump stuff like this out that quickly. What most likely happened was that a light metro alternative was being developed internally as a solution to the escalating costs of the DRL (this is backed up by those late open houses), and when Doug got into office, Metrolinx came up to him and presented all of the different options for projects under his request, he saw the Ontario Line and its delicious cost per kilometer, and told Metrolinx to pursue that instead.

I have seen that counteragument coming from you before. You are rehashing old stuff here (as am I) - so I will just leave it as that. Your comment re: OL is just that, a conjecture - and I find it hard to believe an organization truly interested in minimizing cost and not pander to NIMBYism could not have come up with alternatives to a buried ECWest in the given timeframe, especially when you have cost differential in the $B range. And humour me further - why would Doug Ford want a buried LRT? Why did he (or his brother, on that matter) never pushed for above ground transit, even though it is cheaper - a purported interest? Because it is objectively inferior? Or because it is something that is prone to NIMBYism? I mean how many politicians have you seen actively promoting elevated transit infrastructure in this town over say, the past 20 or so years?

Like I have said, be careful when you sing praises of NIMBYism.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

The good guys are in charge now? Where? Not in City Council at least...

Oh I meant the liberals were the bad guys pushing at grade while the great leadership of Ford has brought us into utopia with grade separated everywhere. But I see how I loss track of the convo. My mistake.