denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
If we go subway why not bring BD to McCowan/Steeles. This way it goes through all the way up, and brings more riders. And then the sheppard subway, to dean park. Create a grid
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Extend the Eglinton LRT or revive the lrt to morningside
nfitz
Superstar
If you did that, you know Region of York (RoY) would soon be proposing sending it to 7/McCowan, and then down 7 into downtown Markham.
TOareaFan
Superstar
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Likely as a condition of their support for transit "revenue tools"
I forgot. If they get 2 way all day on the Stouffville line then no way.
SJD_Toronto
Active Member
It looks like James Pasternak will not support a B-D extension. All he wants to support is a Sheppard West subway.
I suspect that Ana Bailao will support the extension though.
I suspect that Ana Bailao will support the extension though.
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Solid Snake
Active Member
Why within the same budget. Isn't this steady stream of revenue? I hope you seriously don't believe that those taxes if adopted will be temporary.
Hence my argument that if people have to pay extra for transit, they should get what they want as long as it's reasonable.
CDL.TO
Moderator
The list of projects that the new taxes are to fund has already been announced. List here. The time when those are complete and we're considering what else to build with that steady stream of revenue is at least 15-20 years from now.
There is still a limited budget. Not everyone can get what they want, even if reasonable.
kEiThZ
Superstar
The Councillors are quickly realizing that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train. It's the villagers with torches coming for them at the next election. It's dawning on them that asking 650 000 Scarborough residents to pony up while giving them much of the same is not a very sellable proposition. And worse still, it's a proposition that could yield them another Rob Ford victory and cost them their jobs. Their provincial MPPs are paying attention too.
Look at the Metrolinx anchor hub fact sheets for household income:
GTHA: $87 000
Queen St./Downtown: $82 000
Scarborough Centre: $57 000
Now guess which place has the least accessible rapid transit, requiring many families to have a car and thus get hit with most of the proposed "revenue tools"? They'll get hit with Vehicle Registration Taxes, congestion charges, road tolls and parking levies. They'll also get hit hardest with any TTC fare-by-distance scheme. Meanwhile downtown residents will be the least impacted by all those taxes, and yet will benefit the most when the DRL goes by having a subway they can walk to. Downtowners get a nice boost in property values. Scarborough resident may actually take yet another hit, through lower home values (relative to areas closer to rapid transit).
Now, people will argue that Scarborough is getting three of four LRT lines. Sure. But if you live on Finch (which has higher ridership than Sheppard) you won't care. If you live anywhere in southeast Scarborough, you won't care (well at least not for 20 years till the SMLRT enters the discussion). If you live in Dorset Park, Parkwoods, Maryvale, Wexford Heights, you won't care, because the LRTs won't help you much.
If you live near Sheppard or Eglinton? Bully for you. If you live near STC or Lawrence East? Well, there's no real change other than the new LRT won't be as crowded and you might not have to wait for 2-3 trains to go by before you get on at Kennedy in the evening. The real beneficiary of the SRT extension was Centennial College students and the handful of Malvern residents who would have lived close to where the stops were on the extension. Without reaching Malvern Town Centre, the line would not be able to properly intercept most Malvern bus routes anyway. Sure, some of the bus routes could be altered to serve the proposed LRT Sheppard/Progress terminus, but the time savings would be inconsequential compared to the irritant of the Kennedy transfer...and if you don't live in Malvern? You get stuck with the transfer and no time savings. But a subway station at McCowan/Sheppard could actually intercept Milner, Nugget, Sheppard East, McCowan North, etc. and eliminate the Kennedy transfer. Indeed, you might actually get traffic on Sheppard going west to catch the Bloor-Danforth line at McCowan/Sheppard. This will be so popular, people may well forget about asking for a subway extension on Sheppard!
I think it's finally dawning on Stintz and all those Scarborough Councillors who blindly voted to reinstate TC without any changes at all, that there's no real community support since most people won't see any substantial benefit. Pushing for the changeover to subway and elimination of the transfer, while avoiding a shut down of the RT during construction is the least they could do to make these "revenue tools" moderately palatable.
If they can't get this through, the next provincial and municipal elections will be interesting to watch. A whole bunch of Scarborough Liberal MPPs and City Councillors insisting that they were serving their constituents when serving up taxes that may well equal 2-3% of gross income for the average Scarborough household, while undertaking no additional investment beyond what's planned now (under MO2020 provincial funding) for the foreseeable future, while still sticking most Scarborough residents with buses, transfers and crowded subways. All while, their friends and colleagues, resident downtown, who already have household incomes 44% higher, pay less of those fees and get a substantial boost from getting yet another subway within walking distance. That should go up like a lead balloon.
Note. None of this is to say that I don't support the DRL or the LRTs that are being built. But this line should have been a subway extension from the start. And the plan that went to Metrolinx should have insisted on it. The councillors didn't do their jobs. And now they'll have to try and make good on this effort or risk the wrath that comes at the next polls, where voters will be walking past posters advertising the shut down of the SRT and announcing the new "revenue tools" right into the voters booths.
Look at the Metrolinx anchor hub fact sheets for household income:
GTHA: $87 000
Queen St./Downtown: $82 000
Scarborough Centre: $57 000
Now guess which place has the least accessible rapid transit, requiring many families to have a car and thus get hit with most of the proposed "revenue tools"? They'll get hit with Vehicle Registration Taxes, congestion charges, road tolls and parking levies. They'll also get hit hardest with any TTC fare-by-distance scheme. Meanwhile downtown residents will be the least impacted by all those taxes, and yet will benefit the most when the DRL goes by having a subway they can walk to. Downtowners get a nice boost in property values. Scarborough resident may actually take yet another hit, through lower home values (relative to areas closer to rapid transit).
Now, people will argue that Scarborough is getting three of four LRT lines. Sure. But if you live on Finch (which has higher ridership than Sheppard) you won't care. If you live anywhere in southeast Scarborough, you won't care (well at least not for 20 years till the SMLRT enters the discussion). If you live in Dorset Park, Parkwoods, Maryvale, Wexford Heights, you won't care, because the LRTs won't help you much.
If you live near Sheppard or Eglinton? Bully for you. If you live near STC or Lawrence East? Well, there's no real change other than the new LRT won't be as crowded and you might not have to wait for 2-3 trains to go by before you get on at Kennedy in the evening. The real beneficiary of the SRT extension was Centennial College students and the handful of Malvern residents who would have lived close to where the stops were on the extension. Without reaching Malvern Town Centre, the line would not be able to properly intercept most Malvern bus routes anyway. Sure, some of the bus routes could be altered to serve the proposed LRT Sheppard/Progress terminus, but the time savings would be inconsequential compared to the irritant of the Kennedy transfer...and if you don't live in Malvern? You get stuck with the transfer and no time savings. But a subway station at McCowan/Sheppard could actually intercept Milner, Nugget, Sheppard East, McCowan North, etc. and eliminate the Kennedy transfer. Indeed, you might actually get traffic on Sheppard going west to catch the Bloor-Danforth line at McCowan/Sheppard. This will be so popular, people may well forget about asking for a subway extension on Sheppard!
I think it's finally dawning on Stintz and all those Scarborough Councillors who blindly voted to reinstate TC without any changes at all, that there's no real community support since most people won't see any substantial benefit. Pushing for the changeover to subway and elimination of the transfer, while avoiding a shut down of the RT during construction is the least they could do to make these "revenue tools" moderately palatable.
If they can't get this through, the next provincial and municipal elections will be interesting to watch. A whole bunch of Scarborough Liberal MPPs and City Councillors insisting that they were serving their constituents when serving up taxes that may well equal 2-3% of gross income for the average Scarborough household, while undertaking no additional investment beyond what's planned now (under MO2020 provincial funding) for the foreseeable future, while still sticking most Scarborough residents with buses, transfers and crowded subways. All while, their friends and colleagues, resident downtown, who already have household incomes 44% higher, pay less of those fees and get a substantial boost from getting yet another subway within walking distance. That should go up like a lead balloon.
Note. None of this is to say that I don't support the DRL or the LRTs that are being built. But this line should have been a subway extension from the start. And the plan that went to Metrolinx should have insisted on it. The councillors didn't do their jobs. And now they'll have to try and make good on this effort or risk the wrath that comes at the next polls, where voters will be walking past posters advertising the shut down of the SRT and announcing the new "revenue tools" right into the voters booths.
Solid Snake
Active Member
this is where a strong mayor and council would have been useful to be able to push Toronto's project ahead of the others...
jje1000
Senior Member
Depends on that strong mayor though. Hopefully council will step up to that role.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I get what you're trying to say, but I take issue with this:
Most Downtown Toronto residents will tell you that they will see little to no benefit from the DRL. Either because they don't need to take transit since they work close to home, or because they're already within walking distance of their closest station. The people the DRL will benefit the most from DRL is definitely Downtown bound travellers coming from the Eastern Toronto. It certainly would have been very useful for me back when I lived in the East York.
Most Downtown Toronto residents will tell you that they will see little to no benefit from the DRL. Either because they don't need to take transit since they work close to home, or because they're already within walking distance of their closest station. The people the DRL will benefit the most from DRL is definitely Downtown bound travellers coming from the Eastern Toronto. It certainly would have been very useful for me back when I lived in the East York.
kEiThZ
Superstar
That's what a lot of people simply don't understand. Perception. If you don't live near Sheppard or Eglinton, you aren't seeing squat in Scarborough. You will still be waiting in the cold, for a bus, to take you to your RT station to an unnecessary (as perceived) transfer. Only, you'll now be paying more for it, possibly taking a hit in home values, and you'll have to go for 3-5 years with no RT just to retain status quo.
I would venture to say that with the exception of SC and McCowan, most SRT ridership is transfer traffic.
I get the slippery slope arguments. But realistically, I can't think of another place where you could apply it. This is the only corridor where the subway is within 22% of the price tag of the LRT. There is no other corridor where it would apply. Sheppard is an argument over cost multiples. And where in the 905 do you have these kinds of debates? The 905 debates are over whether or not to build an LRT or a BRT. I have yet to see a 905 fight over which mode of higher-order transit to build.
The Scarborough councillors have no choice. Their constituents will be hopping mad when they get that letter in the mail advising them of the SRT shut down, right after they get a notice about all the "revenue tools" they'll be "using". They better have something to show for it. As for the other councillors, some are Rob Ford types and simply won't vote for it, because they don't support the new taxes. It has nothing at all to do with opposition to the subway. The anti-SRT subway crowd is actually small. And in the end, they'll come together. Because they all fear Rob Ford's populism and a possible backlash at a provincial election (electing Hudak), far more than they really care about the money being spent here.
This move by Stintz puts Ford in a very difficult position. He votes against revenue tools and there will be posters all over Scarborough about how he voted against the Scarborough subway. Or he votes for the "revenue tools" (far-fetched I know) and Ford nation will give their founder the boot. Either way, Stintz wins. Rob Ford loses.
One bus route from STC successfully suports Centennial now. There's just not enough students at Centennial to drive transit planning in all of northern Scarborough. UTSC is massive. But again, UTSC is better served by the BRT along Ellesemere, than even the Morningside LRT.
As for Malvern. The station at Sheppard/McCowan simply moves the rapid transit transfer point 2 km West. So about 5-7 mins further west on the bus. But now, many more Malvern bus routes can intercept the station. The Sheppard/McCowan station is sufficiently north enough that some of the travel time will be reduced. And there will be no transfer and fewer stops till Kennedy. All in all, the travel time from Malvern on the subway and LRT extension would be similar, except that the comfort level is much higher (shorter bus ride, one less transfer) and many more bus routes are intercepted (reflected in the 5M additional annual riders).
TOareaFan
Superstar
But are the mayors of the other cities just gonna sit by and watch revenue get raised all over the region just get spent on the Toronto projects that get pushed ahead of the others?
I have been saying this since revenue tools were first being discussed......the art is not defining and implementing tools that, region-wide, will raise $2B a year...that is just math. The art is then spending that money over a 25 year period in such a fashion that no one region feels that all they are doing is funding building for someone else. Don't forget, around these parts, anyone who institutes/collects these new revenue tools has to go to the electorate every 4 or so years.........if a provincial government gets support for 4 years of this, then 4 years later all they have done is build subways in Scarborough and downtown Toronto they can pretty much kiss any votes in the surrounding municipalities goodbye (and the opposite is true if they focus on GO expansion exclusively first).
TOareaFan
Superstar
What I was getting at is the renegotiation of the plan as hostage for the support....not just the subway v LRT argument. Aside from wanting the mode changed, these councillors are also "demanding" that this project be the first funded. So how much when the councillors say:
how much different is that from the councillor in Milton who said:
The slippery slope I see is that once one area renegotiates the plan, then it opens it up for everyone to do the same...or withhold their support. Frankly, if one area gets to rewrite the plan in their favour before endorsing the funding mechanism...I would expect no less of the people who represent me.