nfitz
Superstar
And yet their heavy rail service has stagnated for years; at this rate by 2020 ours will be doing things that they can't do.
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- Thread starter kettal
- Start date
kEiThZ
Superstar
We can have ATO, PSDs, and whatever other gadgets we want, but we'll never come close to carrying more than a mere fraction of the amount of people that the NYC subway does in a day (which if wiki is right is nearly as much as the population of the GTA) or even get down to their level of car-dependency over here. The key feature of their system is coverage that allows for rapid travel to every corner of the city. Indeed, it's probably faster to take the subway in New York in many instances than it is to drive.
That's something we'll never have here and will probably become more distant after Transit City sucks up all transit expansion funds in Toronto for the next half century. New York is only building light rail now to supplement their heavy rail system. Yet, we in Toronto seem to think we are smarter than them or the Europeans and can essentially build a transit system using light rail for long distances, to attract drivers from their cars.
nfitz
Superstar
The simple population numbers will guarantee that their system will be bigger.
But rapid travel to every corner of the city? Outside of Manhattan, that's pushing it ... and the transit system only covers the 5 boroughs of New York City ... connections to the urban area beyond that are quite limited other than the PATH, which isn't integrated properly into the rest of the system, and has been neglected for the best part of a century. The lack of a subway to Staten Island has been noted for decades. The lack of regional express trains.
As you clearly don't understand what's being done in Toronto, it's no wonder you fail to understand New York!
kEiThZ
Superstar
And what accounts for the relative difference? Why is their modal share of transit higher?
That's like suggesting the TTC is terrible because we don't have every line extending into the 905. Subway coverage is decent throughout the boroughs and that's what matters. And yes it's quick. Ever tackle any of their bridges into Brooklyn or Queens during a weekday? Even outside of rush hour, the subway is faster.
I didn't say their system is perfect. A subway to Staten Island is needed to be sure. It would however, be quite expensive and a bit of an engineering feat.
As for the lack of a regional express service, they may not have the Paris RER or S-bahn but the Long Island Rail Road is quite comparable to GO over here.
Please englighten me as to my failings in understanding what's happening in Toronto.
kettal
Banned
Have you been to Melbourne? Some 200 suburbs in Melbourne have an electrified train station with all-day service. The train system covers the entire urban area, which is more than we can say about Toronto.
nfitz
Superstar
Density; traffic congestion. Lack of parking (it's often further to walk to the car, than it is to the subway).
In rush-hour yes; when I've gone head-to-head with a car in the evening, I've always lost ... at least travelling from Brooklyn to the Bronx. Perhaps if one was beginning/ending in Manhattan ...
LIRR and Metro-North is comparable to GO now; but I don't think that any of the lines (and I'm not familiar with all of them) are better than 2 TPH off-peak ... and some are 2 hours per train!
Apparently you think that LRT is being built for long-distance travel; it's not anymore for long-distance than bus is; people will be travelling from Scarborough to Etobicoke by LRT (though I guess if your place of work is by one station, and your house is by another, it might be reasonable ... but that's surely a minority). But we've discussed this before ... and you fail to listen.
nfitz
Superstar
How does car share compare? I'm sure New York has a higher walking share. Is there a reference?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
City of compared to City of or metro to metro? New York is surrounded by like 10,000 sq.km of Auroras and Ajaxes and Caledons, which would decimate its metro average moreso than the suburban GTA decimates ours.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Sure enough. And if I lived NYC I sure as hell would not want to drive during rush hour. However, there is something to be said for a transit system that ensures you can get to where you want to go in a reasonable timeframe (that's moderately competitive with a car).
My experience has been different but this really comes down to when and where.... Like I said on a weekday during business hours, the subway is fairly competitive with a car.
Your point was that they lack a regional express system. Well so do we. They have some very long routes which explains the 2 hr ride and the poor off-peak service. But GO ain't all that great on most of its routes. Try Stoufville off-peak. My point is, NYC has a fairly comparable regional service with Toronto.
It's not just me that thinks this. It's how it's being sold in Scarborough. Go to a open house and you'll hear about how this will help you get downtown faster. Scarberians aren't complaining about going from the zoo to Agincourt. They want to be able to get to their jobs along Yonge or in the core much quicker.
If as you say the focus has changed (or was misunderstood) then it's time the TTC was more honest with their marketing and started telling people you'll only save a few minutes with this plan. A more important (but related)question is why are billions being spent to improve local service when there seems to be few concerns about such service (in Malvern anyway), while there are torrents of complaints about being able to travel cross-town. Shaving a few minutes from a ride to Don Mills won't really do all that much for Malvernites and it will do close to nothing for Agincourt residents.
Just as you suggest I don't understand what's going on in Toronto, I would suggest that you have a poor understanding of the travel/commuting needs of north Scarborough residents. It's quite arrogant to suggest that you know better the people who live there what they need.
kettal
Banned
You're probably right.
"As for transit, there is no disputing that Toronto is the most transit dependent urban area in North
America. Approximately 13 percent of travel (person miles) is on transit, nearly 1.5 times the
market share of New York and a couple of percentage points above Montreal."
http://www.demographia.com/rac-toronto.pdf
nfitz
Superstar
Hmm ... from http://www.demographia.com/rac-toronto.pdf ...
As scarberiankhatru suggests, it's likely related to the area considered. There's no way our transit usage matches theirs in the core ... but we might well do better outside of the main part of the city (though they do have a layer of dense urban before they get to their Caledon's ... Staten Island, Hoboken, Jersey City, Newak, even Yonkers ... and I've no personal experience to suggest that transit in any of those is great ...
As scarberiankhatru suggests, it's likely related to the area considered. There's no way our transit usage matches theirs in the core ... but we might well do better outside of the main part of the city (though they do have a layer of dense urban before they get to their Caledon's ... Staten Island, Hoboken, Jersey City, Newak, even Yonkers ... and I've no personal experience to suggest that transit in any of those is great ...
Swarley
Active Member
I found an interesting line in that report -
This seems like it's out of the 50s - "urban sprawl is the future of tomorrow!"
kettal
Banned
Yeah, the author is like the Fraser Institute in human form. Probably not a good source.
leopetr
Active Member
In New York City, transit mode share is ~55% in 2007.
In Toronto, transit mode share of rush hour commute downtown was ~65% in 2006 (46% TTC, 19% GO).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USCommutePatterns2006.png
http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comr..._Additional_Information_Costs___Ridership.pdf
In Toronto, transit mode share of rush hour commute downtown was ~65% in 2006 (46% TTC, 19% GO).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USCommutePatterns2006.png
http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comr..._Additional_Information_Costs___Ridership.pdf
kEiThZ
Superstar
Does the NYC stats include commuters from NJ or those coming in on the LIRR? That's the only way you can make it comparable to Toronto if you are including GO.