[Smlgucci]

I used to live in Birmingham, UK and travel regularly to London for work. Train travel times were just under 1hr20mins. It wasn't uncommon that I'd make the trip twice per week, sometimes thrice. Where possible I'd try to bunch days together as one hotel stay and one open return would be cheaper than two open return tickets. Many of my colleagues did the exact same.

If London, ON to Toronto HSR times similarly fall to 1hr20mins, this kind of travel would work perfectly for any professionals whose client meetings are concentrated in downtown Toronto.

 

[micheal_can]

You are severely under estimating commuting times. South Kitchener to Mississauga City Centre is an hour when you leave at 6am. If you hit traffic it's easily 1.5 hours, sure the 401 widening between Milton and Cambridge will help but still. In what world are you doing a London to Toronto commute in 2 hours? Its about an hour from London to Kitchener so you're looking at 2 hours in absolutely perfect conditions to get to Mississauga, so its more like 2.5 to 3 to get to Toronto.

Sure HSR could fix that and make it a reasonable commuter city but it would have to be awfully quick. KWC is already close enough that with HSR they'd get a boom of housing (they also have a public transit system that isn't atrocious unlike London). Sure London could become a commuter city but as it is now you'd have to really cut down on commute times to make it a logical option which HSR has the ability to but no one is going to live in Ottawa and commute to Toronto, likewise no one does the London to Toronto commute without going crazy.

I know of people who live in London and WFH, but once or twice a month need to go into Toronto. For them, it is not a 2 hour commute. That 2:09 is what is expected for a HSR to do it. For the people I know, if they are still working at that point, a 2 hour commute, even without factoring the first and last mile will be a dream for them.

I know when visiting them from the 400 to them is about 2hours with 407-403-401. Using the 401 is not worth it for me anymore. The tolls are also worth the time savings. The SWO HSR will not greatly change my traveling future, but for some of my family and friends, it will be a life changer.

 

[afransen]

I used to live in Birmingham, UK and travel regularly to London for work. Train travel times were just under 1hr20mins. It wasn't uncommon that I'd make the trip twice per week, sometimes thrice. Where possible I'd try to bunch days together as one hotel stay and one open return would be cheaper than two open return tickets. Many of my colleagues did the exact same.

If London, ON to Toronto HSR times similarly fall to 1hr20mins, this kind of travel would work perfectly for any professionals whose client meetings are concentrated in downtown Toronto.

This was my thought. Such HSR would be useful for business travel, not for daily commuting.

 

[duty free]

This was my thought. Such HSR would be useful for business travel, not for daily commuting.

Couldn't HSR just replace GO's commuter service for longer distances (beyond 50 km) and have the local stop spacing operated as an S-Bahn service? Wouldn't that actually be more ideal?

Commuting 2 hours each way from places like Kitchener & Barrie daily makes zero sense to me. I would never do any of those trips daily via GO train. If HSR could cut trips like that in half then who wouldn't want that option? It would make living in those small cities and commuting daily to Toronto infinitely more appealing. GO doesn't work well for distances further than 50 - 60 km in my opinion.

 

[micheal_can]

Couldn't HSR just replace GO's commuter service for longer distances (beyond 50 km) and have the local stop spacing operated as an S-Bahn service? Wouldn't that actually be more ideal?

Commuting 2 hours each way from places like Kitchener & Barrie daily makes zero sense to me. I would never do any of those trips daily via GO train. If HSR could cut trips like that in half then who wouldn't want that option? It would make living in those small cities and commuting daily to Toronto infinitely more appealing. GO doesn't work well for distances further than 50 - 60 km in my opinion.

If we could fit the tracks, HSR from those places could cause that.

 

[north-of-anything]

Couldn't HSR just replace GO's commuter service for longer distances (beyond 50 km) and have the local stop spacing operated as an S-Bahn service? Wouldn't that actually be more ideal?

Commuting 2 hours each way from places like Kitchener & Barrie daily makes zero sense to me. I would never do any of those trips daily via GO train. If HSR could cut trips like that in half then who wouldn't want that option? It would make living in those small cities and commuting daily to Toronto infinitely more appealing. GO doesn't work well for distances further than 50 - 60 km in my opinion.

Sounds to me like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. GO trains can do more than just shuttle commuters to downtown Toronto, and Metrolinx is finally starting to make use of that. The intent to switch to a local-express service would allow for faster trips from the outlying stations without completely separating them from interior stations like Bramalea and Maple.

The whole point of HSR is for LONG-distance trips between MAJOR population centres. Barrie is just not large or distant enough for HSR to make sense, while Kitchener stands to benefit more from the GO model through trips to and from Guelph, Halton, and Brampton.

 

[micheal_can]

Sounds to me like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. GO trains can do more than just shuttle commuters to downtown Toronto, and Metrolinx is finally starting to make use of that. The intent to switch to a local-express service would allow for faster trips from the outlying stations without completely separating them from interior stations like Bramalea and Maple.

The whole point of HSR is for LONG-distance trips between MAJOR population centres. Barrie is just not large or distant enough for HSR to make sense, while Kitchener stands to benefit more from the GO model through trips to and from Guelph, Halton, and Brampton.

If we assumed that they used the Guelph sub for the future SWO HSR to London, would a stop at Kitchener make sense?

 

[north-of-anything]

If we assumed that they used the Guelph sub for the future SWO HSR to London, would a stop at Kitchener make sense?

Yes, it's enough of a destination for people coming from both directions.

The best possible route and stop selection to me is Union - Pearson/Woodbine - Kitchener - London - Windsor.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes, it's enough of a destination for people coming from both directions.

The best possible route and stop selection to me is Union - Pearson/Woodbine - Kitchener - London - Windsor.

So then using it to commute from Kitchener will be a no brainer.

 

[duty free]

Yes, it's enough of a destination for people coming from both directions.

The best possible route and stop selection to me is Union - Pearson/Woodbine - Kitchener - London - Windsor.

For sure, but wouldn't Windsor - London - Hamilton - Toronto also make a ton of sense?

HSR doesn't need to limited to just one corridor, but I agree the distance needs to far enough and the population centres large enough for it to be viable.

I used to live in Germany for a few years and I would take the ICE from Berlin to Leipzig often. London to Toronto is roughly the same distance, but you couldn't pay me to take a GO train over 4 hours between the two. I'd take GO from Kitchener to Guelph, but if I lived in Kitchener I'd never take GO to Union if a HSR option also existed. Same goes for London to Kitchener.

 

[north-of-anything]

For sure, but wouldn't Windsor - London - Hamilton - Toronto also make a ton of sense?

HSR doesn't need to limited to just one corridor, but I agree the distance needs to far enough and the population centres large enough for it to be viable.

I used to live in Germany for a few years and I would take the ICE from Berlin to Leipzig often. London to Toronto is roughly the same distance, but you couldn't pay me to take a GO train over 4 hours between the two. I'd take GO from Kitchener to Guelph, but if I lived in Kitchener I'd never take GO to Union if a HSR option also existed. Same goes for London to Kitchener.

The Kitchener route is simply easier to build since there's less conflict potential with freight, and a one-seat connection (or almost one-seat) to Pearson is very valuable for passengers going to or from Ottawa and Montreal. That's why I put Kitchener ahead of Hamilton. If we can afford to make alternate HSR routes, I would make one that includes Hamilton - London - Sarnia.

GO trains west of Kitchener, if they ever return, should be oriented towards local stops between London and Guelph, leaving Toronto-bound passengers west of Guelph to transfer in Kitchener.

 

[micheal_can]

The Kitchener route is simply easier to build since there's less conflict potential with freight, and a one-seat connection (or almost one-seat) to Pearson is very valuable for passengers going to or from Ottawa and Montreal. That's why I put Kitchener ahead of Hamilton. If we can afford to make alternate HSR routes, I would make one that includes Hamilton - London - Sarnia.

GO trains west of Kitchener, if they ever return, should be oriented towards local stops between London and Guelph, leaving Toronto-bound passengers west of Guelph to transfer in Kitchener.

What if we ignored the wants of freight carriers and actually built a system along routes that actually would be good for the citizens of the area? The problem is, we are beholden to the freight carriers so much that we really cannot have what we should have, but will get what we can.

 

[TransportEnthusiast]

What if we ignored the wants of freight carriers and actually built a system along routes that actually would be good for the citizens of the area? The problem is, we are beholden to the freight carriers so much that we really cannot have what we should have, but will get what we can.

Economic considerations should always be forefront. Those freight lines are the backbone of international and domestic trade, sacrificing them for passenger rail would be an economic loss that would negatively impact businesses and jobs. Your proposal would be a net economic loss (any economic gains from sacrificing freight for passenger rail would result in a greater economic loss).

Union > Pearson > Kitchener > London > Windsor and increasing frequency and speed of Lakeshore West GO line makes more sense imo.

 

[micheal_can]

Economic considerations should always be forefront. Those freight lines are the backbone of international and domestic trade, sacrificing them for passenger rail would be an economic loss that would negatively impact businesses and jobs. Your proposal would be a net economic loss (any economic gains from sacrificing freight for passenger rail would result in a greater economic loss).

It is not that we should shut them down or anything like that. It is more that if we want to put in tracks beside theirs, they should allow it without any concerns.. It is also that all of our mainlines should be 2 track;4if passenger service runs on them.

Union > Pearson > Kitchener > London > Windsor and increasing frequency and speed of Lakeshore West GO line makes more sense imo.

That would be a good start,

 

[afransen]

The simplest thing might be to have higher speed express service (if not HSR) from Niagara Falls - St Catharines - Hamilton - (Port Credit?) - Toronto, and make Union the connection point for HSR trips to Hamilton. Alternately, I could see the case for rail service from Hamilton/West GTA on LSW up to Pearson. Maybe this could go along the 427 or follow the 403. Hamilton is a pretty large city to have poor transit access to its main passenger airport.