urbanclient
Senior Member
One can hope, see below:
Also, Ukraine's economy is in very rough shape too.
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- Thread starter Towered
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Admiral Beez
Superstar
Well yes, but they won’t be rebuilding on their own, as foreign investment will flood into resource and agriculturally rich Ukraine. Whomever replaces Zelenskyy will prioritize gaining EU membership, which will fast track a lot.
Russia may have started the war with a higher GDP per Capita than Ukraine, but the former spent most of it on military and graft. I recall stories of the surprise of the Russian invaders when they show that the average Ukrainian home near Kyiv (richer than much of Ukraine, must be said) had flat screen TVs, microwaves and other gadgets, when they’d come from utter squalor.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Very much depends on the aid provided and level of integration into the EU. Hopefully, Europe doesn't forget Ukraine after the war.
I think it can actually be accomplished in 20-30 years. Poland comes to mind. They joined the EU in 2004. Now:
urbanclient
Senior Member
I very much agree it depends on the aid provided.Very much depends on the aid provided and level of integration into the EU. Hopefully, Europe doesn't forget Ukraine after the war.
I think it can actually be accomplished in 20-30 years. Poland comes to mind. They joined the EU in 2004. Now:
But comparing Poland, one of the most dynamic, and literally the fastest growing economy in Europe to the UK, one of the sick men of Europe, is not the best comparison.
One would expect a less developed country to grow faster, and a developed country to grow slower.
Full Metal Junkie
Senior Member
It's not only that Russians were surprised to find (and promptly loot) the flat screen TVs from Kiev region satellite towns they briefly occupied.
The much bigger and sadder story was the Russians' fascination with toilets. As in: the actual white porcelain bowls that civilized people use to relieve themselves into in civilized countries. Numerous reports of Russians marauding not only all of appliances, including washing machines, but even the toilet bowls! Reports like this WSJ article, and this Ukrposhta incident are but two of thousands:
You see, the vast majority of soldiers in the initial Russian invasion force were people from the rural outer districts of Russia. They enlisted in the army because there was no other work in their regions. And the sad part is majority of them have never used or seen a porcelain toilet in their lives. It was a cultural shock to them that Ukrainian villages had:
1. paved roads
2. plumbing and running water
3. indoor toilets with porcelain bowls (instead of an outhouse with a hole in the floor they're used to)
4. washing machines
That's why toilet bowls and washing machines were so commonly marauded and shipped back home as spoils of war in the initial days of the war: it is a wealth/status symbol in rural Russia.
There is even this report from Ukrainian soldiers recapturing Russian-occupied villages that clearly shows that whoever was occupying this house didn't know what a toilet bowl is or how to use it :
It's weird to see the difference in how people live between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is 3 times poorer, yet their villages look cared-for, they have paved roads, the fences are nice, the houses are upkept. The Russian villages look like a dump, like no one gives a sh!t about where they live. Drop yourself down into a random village in Ukraine on Google StreetView, and then do the same somewhere in Siberia. The difference is stark, even though supposedly they started off at the same starting point following the Soviet Union collapse:
Ukraine:
Russia:
Russians can steal all the toilets and washing machines in the world, but what are they going to do with them when they get them back home? Put it on top of the hole in the ground in the outhouse that still doesn't have running water?
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Towered
Superstar
The only solace I feel is that these savages are being picked off to the tune of 35-40 thousand every month. Ukraine is doing the rest of the world a massive solid.
Full Metal Junkie
Senior Member
A massive number 2 solid, if you catch my drift.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
That's what Zelenskyy has been trying to tell the world for five years now. Give us the tools and we'll save Europe.
I hope Ukraine hits Moscow on the 9th. In the past years Ukraine held off as it didn't like the optics, but forget that now. The symbolism is too strong to miss.
evandyk
Senior Member
It's not quite accurate to say that Ukraine is 3 times poorer. The GDP per capita in Russia is higher (probably more like 2.5x) but is captured at a much higher rate by a small slice of oligarchs.
Full Metal Junkie
Senior Member
Full Metal Junkie
Senior Member
I mean, from the context of my posts it should be clear that the 3x refers to both on average GDP/capita and is only roughly 3x.
And as my comparison of the villages illustrates, the devil is in the details. The average obviously doesn't translate into the extreme outliers. And the fact that Ukraine's poorest regions look so much nicer than Russian ones speaks volumes about the wealth inequality in Russia.
afransen
Senior Member
GDP per capita can be very misleading. I imagine median income in Russia is very low, with much of GDP being captured by Russian elite kleptocrats and to keep power centres like Moscow and St Petersburg content.
kEiThZ
Superstar
The analogy works when we're comparing Ukraine with EU support to a stagnant Russia. The UK and Russia have similar economic trajectories. And there's no way Russia is seeing more economic growth after this war.
kEiThZ
Superstar
There's thing I disagree with Harper on. But I'm for ever grateful for the firm and unwavering stance he's had on Putin and Russia, right from booting Russia from the G8.
Lennox970
Active Member
There is much talk of Ukraine joining the EU, and that is a good path for it to take when the conflict ends. However, there has been friction with existing member states, particularly in Eastern Europe, on talk of accelerated entry. The agricultural sector is a particular point of contention. This is nothing new, but expectations need to be managed within a framework of a pathway to eventual ascension. Security guarantees will be crucial for inward investment, as well as the return and resettlement of its 5 or 6 million refugees. Long, hard path I dare say.
That will not happen: Poland opposes accelerated EU accession for Ukraine
That will not happen: Poland opposes accelerated EU accession for Ukraine