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afransen said:
Of course, I think a better solution is (more reasonable) tolls across the whole urban 400 series network.
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There isn’t a provincial party with the guts to go for that. Remember how Andrea Horwath wouldn’t support tolling the Gardiner?
 
Civdis said:
We already pay plenty of tolls, it's called the gas tax 🥴
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It's nowhere near enough to pay for projects like this, and Douggie recently made a cut to the tax permanent which also means less money to go around.

During the days of the (full) gas tax and the federal carbon tax ramping up, a lot of people would go to gas stations on First Nations reserves to fill up as it was far cheaper to do so and worth your time. With the carbon tax gone and the gas tax cut, the savings as a % is much lower, but is still worth it if you have a big truck and/or boat to fill up with premium or whatever. I know people that bought lots of large jerry cans too, and with the savings much less now I doubt their investment in all those paid off :p

The revenue from the gas tax as it stands now would just maintain a patchwork of roads in the province. No money for any expansions or new highways. Funding for projects like the 413 has to come from other sources.
 
Yeah, the gas prices at the First Nations along the Highway 69/400 corridor aren’t quite as appealing now that the consumer carbon tax is gone and that gas stations in Parry Sound have dropped their prices somewhat to stay competitive.

Furthermore, despite their large size and considerable weight, the owners of electric SUVs and light trucks don’t pay any gas taxes despite the wear and tear they cause on provincial highways.
 
Yeah and another thing that just kind of popped into my head is there will be less revenue from the gas tax as time goes on as more people switch over to EV so will we see a new tax be introduced for the purchase of EVs to compensate for this or will we just let our roads get more derelict
 
Collingwoodbuildinglover said:
Yeah and another thing that just kind of popped into my head is there will be less revenue from the gas tax as time goes on as more people switch over to EV so will we see a new tax be introduced for the purchase of EVs to compensate for this or will we just let our roads get more derelict
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Some places are charging a higher amount for license plate renewals although with that currently gone in Ontario we will probably have to look for other ways.
 
Collingwoodbuildinglover said:
Yeah and another thing that just kind of popped into my head is there will be less revenue from the gas tax as time goes on as more people switch over to EV so will we see a new tax be introduced for the purchase of EVs to compensate for this or will we just let our roads get more derelict
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I reckon we'll see a tax added to charging, similar to how they tax drivers for filling up.

But the government is probably hesitant to introduce such a tax (at the moment), because they don't want to discourage adoption of EVs. They'll probably introduce a "charging tax" once the ban on the manufacturing and sale of ICE vehicles is in place.
 
Bojaxs said:
I reckon we'll see a tax added to charging, similar to how they tax drivers for filling up.

But the government is probably hesitant to introduce such a tax (at the moment), because they don't want to discourage adoption of EVs. They'll probably introduce a "charging tax" once the ban on the manufacturing and sale of ICE vehicles is in place.
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I don't think so. Most EV drivers charge at home off their electric connection. Trying to tax electrons that go into EV batteries would be impossibly complex. What would make sense is a per km road usage charge paid at annual registration, on all vehicles (since gas tax is approaching zero nowadays anyway). Could be made optionally electronic, too.
 
Civdis said:
We already pay plenty of tolls, it's called the gas tax 🥴
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Gas Tax revenue in 2022/23 was 2.7 billion. And gas taxes have been cut substantially since then. So there are questions then. What would the 407 be valued at by its private ownership group to purchase in whole? ( The equation changes obviously if the ask is just the connection with the 413 south of the 407) Some opinion values the asset at $30 billion or more in total. And how much do you the taxpayer want to take on to own this asset? And as most Ontario tax payers think they pay too much in tax now, do you just add this to the provinces debt - in March of this year it stood at $451 billion. And cost you $16 billion in interest payments.

Would you rather spend $30 billion on this highway or look at other options where funds are crucially needed - healthcare, housing, transit, childcare ……

Purchasing the connection ( if available) makes sense and is more fiscally palatable, but does not really address the lingering question of 401 congestion. But then you can add 404/DVP congestion, QEW/403 congestion, 410, 427 etc to the list.

Tolling and congestion charges will be part of our GTA lives at some point. Highways and roads have finite capacities and other users should have a higher ranking then the single occupant car.
 
just east of the creek said:
Gas Tax revenue in 2022/23 was 2.7 billion. And gas taxes have been cut substantially since then. So there are questions then. What would the 407 be valued at by its private ownership group to purchase in whole? ( The equation changes obviously if the ask is just the connection with the 413 south of the 407) Some opinion values the asset at $30 billion or more in total. And how much do you the taxpayer want to take on to own this asset? And as most Ontario tax payers think they pay too much in tax now, do you just add this to the provinces debt - in March of this year it stood at $451 billion. And cost you $16 billion in interest payments.

Would you rather spend $30 billion on this highway or look at other options where funds are crucially needed - healthcare, housing, transit, childcare ……

Purchasing the connection ( if available) makes sense and is more fiscally palatable, but does not really address the lingering question of 401 congestion. But then you can add 404/DVP congestion, QEW/403 congestion, 410, 427 etc to the list.

Tolling and congestion charges will be part of our GTA lives at some point. Highways and roads have finite capacities and other users should have a higher ranking then the single occupant car.
Click to expand...
It's not just about cars! The fact is that highways, along with freight rail, form the backbone of our goods movement system. We need a multimodal approach to transportation, and it's not like we aren't spending billions on subways and regional rail.
 
Civdis said:
It's not just about cars! The fact is that highways, along with freight rail, form the backbone of our goods movement system. We need a multimodal approach to transportation, and it's not like we aren't spending billions on subways and regional rail.
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Buying the 407 doesn't create any capacity. It's just taking existing capacity and making it function poorly by making it congested.
 
just east of the creek said:
Gas Tax revenue in 2022/23 was 2.7 billion. And gas taxes have been cut substantially since then. So there are questions then. What would the 407 be valued at by its private ownership group to purchase in whole? ( The equation changes obviously if the ask is just the connection with the 413 south of the 407) Some opinion values the asset at $30 billion or more in total. And how much do you the taxpayer want to take on to own this asset? And as most Ontario tax payers think they pay too much in tax now, do you just add this to the provinces debt - in March of this year it stood at $451 billion. And cost you $16 billion in interest payments.

Would you rather spend $30 billion on this highway or look at other options where funds are crucially needed - healthcare, housing, transit, childcare ……

Purchasing the connection ( if available) makes sense and is more fiscally palatable, but does not really address the lingering question of 401 congestion. But then you can add 404/DVP congestion, QEW/403 congestion, 410, 427 etc to the list.

Tolling and congestion charges will be part of our GTA lives at some point. Highways and roads have finite capacities and other users should have a higher ranking then the single occupant car.
Click to expand...
Let's spend $14B to re-upload most if not all of the highways that were downloaded in the 90s, and fix up the massive maintenance deficit that these former highways now have to deal with under counties that can't afford to maintain them. Way better use of money than buying back the 407.
 

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca news.ontario.ca

Ford is doing a press conference with the Transportation Minister this morning near the 413/10 interchange - what is supposed to be one of the early works projects here. I suspect it will be 413 related..
 
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