[afransen]

Without combing the HTA and Regs. it must be allowed as I see it frequently here in North Bay. The one feature I like about your images is the 'left turn signal' sign is closer to the actual signal. It seems around here, the sign is mounted on the post holding both signals which are suspended an equal distance.



The one concern I have with a conditional red signal, particularly given the knowledge level of Ontario drivers, is whether it is interpreted as permissive or restrictive; can you proceed in the direction of the arrow or must you stop if you are travelling in that direction? A conditional green arrow is more intuitive.

My prime example of widespread signal confusion is during a failure default condition where something has happened to the controller and it flashes amber in one directional pair and red for the other. In my experience most people have no cue what to do and, on a motorcycle, is a very dangerous situation. Better that they flash red in all directions and turn it into a four-way stop.

I recently drove through an intersection of 2 arterials/6 lanes each way that was flashing red. It's utterly infeasible for treat that properly as an all-way stop. There are too many vehicles to track who has the right of way. Folks defaults to crossing the intersection in flocks of vehicles moving the same direction and roughly taking turns. I think was there shortly after it flipped to this mode as police hadn't arrived and that intersection was going to be horribly backed up without direction from an officer.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In a well designed system, stop signs should be used sparingly, and only where truly needed due to poor visibility.

In all my trips to the the UK I have never once seen a stop sign, including in the most urban areas. Every intersection is either a yield, roundabout or traffic light.

Per Wikipedia "In the United Kingdom, stop signs may only be placed at junctions with tramways or sites with severely restricted visibility."

I remember as a young driver in the 1980s when four way stop signs began popping up all over the GTA, and even then thinking that's a lazy way of traffic planning, and does not reflect how drivers or cyclists actually use the road space.

 

[afransen]

In all my trips to the the UK I have never once seen a stop sign, including in the most urban areas. Every intersection is either a yield, roundabout or traffic light.

Per Wikipedia "In the United Kingdom, stop signs may only be placed at junctions with tramways or sites with severely restricted visibility."

I remember as a young driver in the 1980s when four way stop signs began popping up all over the GTA, and even then thinking that's a lazy way of traffic planning, and does not reflect how drivers or cyclists actually use the road space.

I will say, there are a lot of residential intersections in Toronto with very poor visibility at corners--retaining walls, shrubs, trees right up to corner. Raised intersections should be more common as it forces a driver not to blast through the intersection, but some stop signs may be necessary in these cases. I'm more concerned about pedestrians, particular unpredictable children shooting out from behind a hedge.

 

[nfitz]

In all my trips to the the UK I have never once seen a stop sign, including in the most urban areas. Every intersection is either a yield, roundabout or traffic light.

I've certainly seen them - more so in rual areas where there are problematic site lines. Perhaps more so in Wales.

Heck, in Wales there's been complaints that the Stop signs are only in English! (I could swear I've seen bilingual ones though - but perhaps that's just the Araf ones).

How the humble stop sign has found itself in Welsh language row

A council has complained that “stop” markings on Welsh roads are displayed in English only.

www.walesonline.co.uk

 

[txlseries4]

particular unpredictable children shooting out from behind a hedge.

Reminds me of an exchange I heard on the podcast The War On Cars, episode 140. How Cars Change Us with Tara Goddard, with a couple great quotes/observations:

Tara Goddard: One of my magic wand wishes, I guess, would be to get rid of the word “darts out.” That one drives me absolutely crazy. But also, we want to have places, especially in our dense, urban areas, where, you know what? It’s okay if a kid darts out. Like, it shouldn’t be a death sentence if a kid darts out. Kids don’t have fully-formed brains. They’re not making good decisions all the time, but that’s okay. We need to build an environment that is more forgiving of that.

Doug: One line I can take credit for is I say, you know, in a busy urban environment, pedestrians don’t come out of nowhere, they come out of everywhere. And when you’re driving, you need to be aware of that.

Sarah: And as far as darting goes, I’ve said this before. Kids dart. That is literally how they move. That is how children move. Children are part of our society, and we need to take that into account when we build our environment. It’s always so excruciating to me to see people in New York City with their children doing what I did when I raised my kid here: yelling at them constantly, “No! No! No, don’t!” Because the way that they move naturally, which would be safe in a natural human environment, is not safe in this environment.

I cannot recommend the podcast more highly for anyone interested in road safety/car dependence/mobility.

"Kids dart. [...] This is how children move" really stuck with me—especially after walking around East Danforth with my young nephews recently when came to Toronto for a visit. They were constantly running ahead and jumping over things, while my brother and sister-in-law kept shouting for them to stop and be careful. They’re from a typical car-centric city in the U.S., and though my brother's a firefighter and paramedic who knows the risks, he's fully bought into car culture. It’s frustrating, but I avoid the topic now—it just leads to stubborn disagreement. The consequences of car culture/dependence are everywhere.

 

[Mihairokov]

Reminds me of an exchange I heard on the podcast The War On Cars, episode 140. How Cars Change Us with Tara Goddard, with a couple great quotes/observations:


I cannot recommend the podcast more highly for anyone interested in road safety/car dependence/mobility.

"Kids dart. [...] This is how children move" really stuck with me—especially after walking around East Danforth with my young nephews recently when came to Toronto for a visit. They were constantly running ahead and jumping over things, while my brother and sister-in-law kept shouting for them to stop and be careful. They’re from a typical car-centric city in the U.S., and though my brother's a firefighter and paramedic who knows the risks, he's fully bought into car culture. It’s frustrating, but I avoid the topic now—it just leads to stubborn disagreement. The consequences of car culture/dependence are everywhere.

Doug: One line I can take credit for is I say, you know, in a busy urban environment, pedestrians don’t come out of nowhere, they come out of everywhere. And when you’re driving, you need to be aware of that.

I think a lot of this speaks to where people drive and what they're exposed to. I grew up driving in New Brunswick where I very rarely encountered pedestrians crossing streets most of the time. Fortunately, I also spent a lot of time driving in an urban centre and knew how pedestrians act and how to drive with them around, but I think a lot of it is simply motorists either never interacting or rarely interacting in environments where pedestrians are present. Consider, say, pedestrian traffic at Front & Yonge versus McCowan & Ellesmere. (or, like Bathurst & Elgin Mills). I think most of us can speak firsthand to crossing a street as a pedestrian at Bloor and Bathurst compared to crossing Highway 7 in Vaughan, or similar areas with wider avenues and high car speeds. Some of it is how the road is designed and how it allows motorists to move, but a lot of it is just what motorists are exposed to and what they're used to.

Driving in Europe is pretty crazy by example. When I was driving in Belgium it was common for high-speed roads to loop through small towns with hedges and fences for shoulders. Tight roads, tight corners, high speeds, and yet their roads felt safer. So much more of it relies on the driver being attentive, whereas our wide, straight avenues likely lull motorists to sleep, and thus when a pedestrian does pop out it likely is a bit of a surprise.

 

[afransen]

Reminds me of an exchange I heard on the podcast The War On Cars, episode 140. How Cars Change Us with Tara Goddard, with a couple great quotes/observations:


I cannot recommend the podcast more highly for anyone interested in road safety/car dependence/mobility.

"Kids dart. [...] This is how children move" really stuck with me—especially after walking around East Danforth with my young nephews recently when came to Toronto for a visit. They were constantly running ahead and jumping over things, while my brother and sister-in-law kept shouting for them to stop and be careful. They’re from a typical car-centric city in the U.S., and though my brother's a firefighter and paramedic who knows the risks, he's fully bought into car culture. It’s frustrating, but I avoid the topic now—it just leads to stubborn disagreement. The consequences of car culture/dependence are everywhere.

Yes. We should be building roads and intersections that are tolerant of that. Part of it is provide good visibility at intersections where possible, and where it isn't, make sure drivers have to proceed slowly or risk damaging their vehicle (ie, a raised intersection). Simply slapping a stop sign down and calling it a day is lazy.

 

[lenaitch]

I recently drove through an intersection of 2 arterials/6 lanes each way that was flashing red. It's utterly infeasible for treat that properly as an all-way stop. There are too many vehicles to track who has the right of way. Folks defaults to crossing the intersection in flocks of vehicles moving the same direction and roughly taking turns. I think was there shortly after it flipped to this mode as police hadn't arrived and that intersection was going to be horribly backed up without direction from an officer.

Six through lanes each way? Yikes. What do you suspect happens when the power goes out and it turns into an uncontrolled (four-way stop) intersection? Regardless of the number of lanes or traffic volume, I maintain that a 'fail default' all-red is safer than red-amber. Neither is ideal but it is a system failure mode. The problem with red-amber is some people think it is a four-way stop so if I proceed through on the amber (which I am legally entitled to do), I run the risk of hitting somebody who expected me to stop. If I stop on the amber (which I'm not supposed to do) I run the risk of getting rear ended by somebody who was entitled to expect that I was going to proceed through as the light indicated. A four-way stop may be chaotic but less (not none) chance of somebody simply sailing through.

When we used to live we had an intersection where the lights would regularly go into fault. I would make a point of observing the lights from a long distance and using a backstreet if necessary. On the motorcycle, I would avoid it like the plaque.

Speaking of large intersections, the missus used to be stationed with the OPP at Oak Ridges. Back in the day they had to deal with intersections like Hwy 7 and 11 (Yonge) and Hwy 9 and 1, plus a few others like 27 and 50 when the lights failed. Four through lanes each way plus turn lanes.

They all had MTO controller keys but the newer boxes you couldn't simply cycle through like the old ones. The first thing they would do is turn the lights off to avoid confusion. The ones that were really good at manual traffic direction was like watching ballet. I remember the MTP traffic guys working the Prince''s Gates as a kid. Same thing.

Anyway, I just realized that we have a thread dedicated to traffic signals.

 

[afransen]

Six through lanes each way

Each road was 6 lanes, 3 per direction. I agree that all-way stop is the best default for signal failure but it doesn't even really work for large intersections like this with multiple left turn lanes, etc.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Roundabouts are a safer alternative to traffic signals and stop signs. The tight circle of a roundabout forces drivers to slow down, and the most severe types of intersection crashes — right-angle, left-turn and head-on collisions — are unlikely.

 

[trafficexplorerON]

A red or amber flashing arrow indicates a non-priority permissive turn (with the red arrow, after stopping first) in jurisdictions like Michigan, which makes a lot of use of these. I'd like it as well - there are a number of changes I'd like to see in the OTM and HTA.

In the Sudbury area, however, where a turn is prohibited, they will use a straight green arrow on the side of the intersection where the turn is prohibited or protected by a left turn signal. That's a minor change I'd like to see down here, and since both Greater Sudbury municipal roads (which have traffic signals with black casings) and MTO roads (yellow casings) do it up there, I'm sure there's a OTM/HTA allowance.

View attachment 653700View attachment 653701

I like this idea. The one issue is, though, that that if the green ball burns out, only the straight-through green arrow will remain.
For the examples you posted, I think a solution would be to mount another signal head with a green ball to the far right pole, or in front of the right turn lane.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I think a lot of this speaks to where people drive and what they're exposed to. I grew up driving in New Brunswick where I very rarely encountered pedestrians crossing streets most of the time.

I moved to Fredericton in 2004 from downtown Toronto and quickly noticed the Maritimer driver’s “wave of death” to pedestrians. Instead of using their right of way and allowing pedestrians to wait for a safe gap in traffic, drivers stop and wave them across. This gesture, though well-meaning, puts pedestrians at risk from cars in other lanes or vehicles coming from behind. It would be safer for drivers to keep moving so pedestrians can cross when the road is truly clear.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Roundabouts are a safer alternative to traffic signals and stop signs. The tight circle of a roundabout forces drivers to slow down, and the most severe types of intersection crashes — right-angle, left-turn and head-on collisions — are unlikely.

As a motorcyclist I support roundabouts everywhere.

 

[MisterF]

I moved to Fredericton in 2004 from downtown Toronto and quickly noticed the Maritimer driver’s “wave of death” to pedestrians. Instead of using their right of way and allowing pedestrians to wait for a safe gap in traffic, drivers stop and wave them across. This gesture, though well-meaning, puts pedestrians at risk from cars in other lanes or vehicles coming from behind. It would be safer for drivers to keep moving so pedestrians can cross when the road is truly clear.

While this isn't as common in Toronto I do notice something like this when I'm riding a bike. Specifically at 4-way stops. Drivers routinely wave me through even when they clearly get to a 4-way stop first. It's well intentioned but it creates unpredictability, which creates more risk.

 

[Mihairokov]

I moved to Fredericton in 2004 from downtown Toronto and quickly noticed the Maritimer driver’s “wave of death” to pedestrians. Instead of using their right of way and allowing pedestrians to wait for a safe gap in traffic, drivers stop and wave them across. This gesture, though well-meaning, puts pedestrians at risk from cars in other lanes or vehicles coming from behind. It would be safer for drivers to keep moving so pedestrians can cross when the road is truly clear.

I get into a lot of trouble when I drive in NB now because everyone drives so passively as if they're afraid of everything. I pray when I get a rental car here that I get maritime plates because people will treat you very differently there if you have Ontario plates.

While this isn't as common in Toronto I do notice something like this when I'm riding a bike. Specifically at 4-way stops. Drivers routinely wave me through even when they clearly get to a 4-way stop first. It's well intentioned but it creates unpredictability, which creates more risk.

I was biking along Richmond last week and watched a motorist dead stop in the middle of the street because there was a pigeon standing in the lane.