[Mind_the_gap]

30kph

It's mph... 48.2kph

 

[lenaitch]

I think I finally have an answer for @lenaitch:

I meant the over-abundance of sign clutter.

York Region's implementation of speed cameras really seems disingenuous... they like to put speed cameras where it varies by 10km/h depending on the time of day/month.

Why do we need this excessive signage...
View attachment 651923
View attachment 651924
(Instant Streetview)

Instead of having these:

Source

Also referring to our reluctance to accept the RED left turn arrow, instead requiring extra signage for a red ball. God forbid Ontarians ever go drive in the States...

And our reluctance to accept proper transit transit signals, unlike Quebec. Wonder how many accidents those K-W bar signals have actually caused recently?

Two issues come to mind. If there is to be variable speed limits, fixed signs are immensely cheaper. I do agree that they add clutter. Parking signs are the worst (parking, stopping, standing, some allowed/some prohibited, time of day, etc.) but at least they can be read and studied while not in motion.

The other issue is legal. Unless the law is amended (and successfully survived appeals), the police/Crown would have to somehow introduce evidence that the sign displayed a certain speed at the time the violator passed it. Otherwise, a violator could raise a reasonable doubt that it displayed something else.

Thanks for the YouTube Channel recommendation!

Didn't realize these existed in Toronto:

Should be the standard!

Edit: even better if right turns on red would be banned not just on a red light, but also unless explicitly allowed either with a green ball or green right turn arrow.

Somebody is going to have to explain to me the advantage of a green arrow and 3-second delayed red ball.

Flashing ball advanced green indications are still legal. There are still a few delayed greens out there. There are several variations of traffic signal colour and aspect that are grandfathered into the HTA. I guess it would be nice if signal legislation were updated and made more consistent but I suspect many municipalities would howl and the cost and surely want the province to pay for the upgrades. Some of the older signal controllers simply can't perform some of the more modern functions. I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few mechanical signal controllers out there somewhere.

It's not just us. On a motorcycle, you are damned vulnerable, and it took me a while to figure out the right-of-way rules in Michigan when facing a flashing left amber arrow vs a flashing green arrow. In my Ontario brain, a green going to an amber means it's going red and I should prepare to stop.

 

[nfitz]

Somebody is going to have to explain to me the advantage of a green arrow and 3-second delayed red ball.

The alternative is what we usually see these days, where the pedestrian light goes on, 3 seconds before any direction gets a green.

So presumably the advantage is more traffic that's moving in a straight line can go through the intersection. How many vehicles will turn anyhow?

 

[afransen]

The alternative is what we usually see these days, where the pedestrian light goes on, 3 seconds before any direction gets a green.

So presumably the advantage is more traffic that's moving in a straight line can go through the intersection. How many vehicles will turn anyhow?

I wonder about compliance. Will right turning drivers really wait when they see a green forward arrow?

 

[lenaitch]

The alternative is what we usually see these days, where the pedestrian light goes on, 3 seconds before any direction gets a green.

So presumably the advantage is more traffic that's moving in a straight line can go through the intersection. How many vehicles will turn anyhow?

Got it. Tnx. Three seconds hardly seems advantageous but I'm not a traffic engineer.

 

[bearcat]

'It's a revenue tool': Ontario Premier Doug Ford wants changes to speed cameras

The proposed 2025 Ontario budget contained Highway Traffic Act amendments related to speed and red-light cameras, and community safety zones.

toronto.citynews.ca

"It wasn’t immediately clear why the Ford government opted to include these changes in the budget and many details were still unknown as of Friday, but the bill tabled in the Ontario legislature focused on several things:

• Payments between municipalities and vendors can’t allow payments to vendors based on the number of tickets generated by cameras
• Ontario’s transportation minister “may direct a municipality” to change how ASE, red-light camera systems operate
• The minister may require municipalities to provide information on cameras (unclear what information is being sought)
• Municipalities will be required to publish ASE, red-light camera locations and to display signs
• Creating the power to “prescribe circumstances in which an offence notice, [summons] or administrative penalty shall not be issued” for offences and contraventions when evidence is received by ASEs
• Creating the ability to issue regulations governing municipal councils and the ability to designate community safety zones (officials told CityNews it would be a list of criteria, but details weren’t provided)"

Doug Ford's thoughts on speed cameras:

"The city is using it as their revenue source, and it’s a little unfair. They hide them all over the place and if you’re going, you know, 10 kilometres an hour over, you’re getting dinged. So it’s a real revenue opposed to safety.”

“Everyone should be crawling through a school zone, but they’re putting them all over the place and they’re creating endless amounts of money."

“People aren’t too happy when they get dinged for 10 kilometres over, five kilometres over. It’s a revenue tool.”

Perhaps the Parkside Drive camera will get removed, the province will make sure that araa no longer qualifies as an ASE. Maybe the people cutting to down complained to Doug Ford.

Since when does Doug Ford care about safety anyway, certainly not when it comes to cycling infrastructure.

 

[crs1026]

It would be very easy to remove this argument that speed enforcement is a cash grab, by either
a) allowing the vehicle owner to direct their fine to a registered charity of their choice.... dead easy to accomplish in this world of on-line touchless payment portals..... in effect a "swear jar" for drivers. (Fines are quite valid and useful as the "stick" for bad driving)
or
b) Waive the fine in whole or part if a licensed driver will voluntarily plead guilty to the charge and accept the demerit points (losing points leads to suspension of license which gets bad frivers off the roads).(and affects insurance too)

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

It would be very easy to remove this argument that speed enforcement is a cash grab, by either
a) allowing the vehicle owner to direct their fine to a registered charity of their choice.... dead easy to accomplish in this world of on-line touchless payment portals..... in effect a "swear jar" for drivers. (Fines are quite valid and useful as the "stick" for bad driving)
or
b) Waive the fine in whole or part if a licensed driver will voluntarily plead guilty to the charge and accept the demerit points (losing points leads to suspension of license which gets bad frivers off the roads).(and affects insurance too)

- Paul

Interesting approach, considering some minor criminal convictions are resolved by a 'voluntary' donation to a charity (who just happen to be sitting in the court room). The problem with (b) is electronic enforcement targets the registered owner, not the driver.

 

[reaperexpress]

I wonder about compliance. Will right turning drivers really wait when they see a green forward arrow?

There are bunch of Leading Thru Arrows in Ottawa and compliance is very poor. Here's a video of an intersection I cycle through on my way to work. In this case, the right turning driver did correctly wait until the green arrow ended before turning, but my estimate is about 90% of right turning drivers just treat the thru arrow like a green ball.

However, there are a ton of them in Montreal and compliance is pretty good. Maybe if they were very widespread, drivers would become more familiar with how they're supposed to behave with them. I highly doubt the Toronto example is performing well considering there's only one example in the entire city.

This example in Ottawa does seem to have very good compliance, thanks to a separate signal head for right turns that remains red during the LTI.

 

[crs1026]

Interesting approach, considering some minor criminal convictions are resolved by a 'voluntary' donation to a charity (who just happen to be sitting in the court room). The problem with (b) is electronic enforcement targets the registered owner, not the driver.

The premise that the registered owner is presumed to be the culpable party who should pay up has always been a sticking point for some... personally I am fine with it, as people generally don't hand their car keys to strangers. A lot of the accountability for electronic infractions already gets sorted out between owner and driver over the kitchen table or bosses' desk.
My premise is that traffic enforcement can include voluntary "confessions".... right now, few people walk into a police station and admit they were speeding, but in theory my suggestion isn't any different than what happens for more serious matters where the culprit turns themselves in after a fail to remain or yet to be solved criminal matter.
The incentive in this case would be that no one is out any money and the municipality is not enriched, but the safety and deterrence objectives are met. It might not be widely popular...but I imagine a few owners would be hardnosed and tell the driver, you fess up because I'm not subsidising your infraction. Some parents still demand that kind of accountability when their kids borrow the family car.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

Interesting, had no idea. So it's essentially the same meaning as a solid green arrow in Toronto?

I more meant I think it's not allowed to use an arrow to indicate a direction where travel is allowed but pedestrians have priority. Does that exists anywhere in Ontario?

Like a green arrow pointing left flashing or not both mean that there be no pedestrians in the way when turning, correct?

In Ontario there is no difference between a solid green arrow and a flashing green arrow. They both allow you to proceed with priority in the direction of the arrow. The flashing arrow is explicitly defined in HTA s.144(13):

Flashing green

(13) A driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular flashing green indication or a solid or flashing left turn green arrow indication in conjunction with a circular green indication and facing the indication may, despite subsection 141 (5), proceed forward or turn left or right unless otherwise directed. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (13).

In Québec, a solid green arrow does not necessarily give you priority. There are examples where a right turn arrow is shown at the same time as cyclists/pedestrians on the right side have a green/walk light or Flashing Don't Walk, and right turning drivers are expected to yield to pedestrians and cyclists. This is extremely stupid, especially in the Ottawa region where the meaning of a green arrow is completely different depending on which side of the river you're on.

The more intelligent way of indicating permissive turns is a flashing yellow arrow:

Currently no provinces allow flashing yellow arrows, but there are plans to include them in the next version of the MUTCDC, so they could start appearing fairly soon in provinces that follow that document. Ontario is not one of those provinces, so it would probably be another several years before they get added to the HTA and the Ontario Traffic Manual.

 

[Coolibop]

Currently no provinces allow flashing arrows, but there are plans to include them in the next version of the MUTCDC, so they could start appearing fairly soon in provinces that follow that document. Ontario is not one of those provinces, so it would probably be another several years before they get added to the HTA and the Ontario Traffic Manual.

Presume you mean for anything but left turns? Durham region has only flashing left greens.

Flashing green
(13) A driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular flashing green indication or a solid or flashing left turn green arrow indication in conjunction with a circular green indication and facing the indication may, despite subsection 141 (5), proceed forward or turn left or right unless otherwise directed. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (13).

 

[reaperexpress]

Presume you mean for anything but left turns? Durham region has only flashing left greens.

Flashing green
(13) A driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular flashing green indication or a solid or flashing left turn green arrow indication in conjunction with a circular green indication and facing the indication may, despite subsection 141 (5), proceed forward or turn left or right unless otherwise directed. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (13).

I was talking about flashing yellow arrows in that sentence, not flashing green arrows.

I have edited the post to clarify that that sentence is referring to yellow arrows, but the HTA quote above was already included in my post before I edited it.

 

[lenaitch]

The premise that the registered owner is presumed to be the culpable party who should pay up has always been a sticking point for some... personally I am fine with it, as people generally don't hand their car keys to strangers. A lot of the accountability for electronic infractions already gets sorted out between owner and driver over the kitchen table or bosses' desk.
My premise is that traffic enforcement can include voluntary "confessions".... right now, few people walk into a police station and admit they were speeding, but in theory my suggestion isn't any different than what happens for more serious matters where the culprit turns themselves in after a fail to remain or yet to be solved criminal matter.
The incentive in this case would be that no one is out any money and the municipality is not enriched, but the safety and deterrence objectives are met. It might not be widely popular...but I imagine a few owners would be hardnosed and tell the driver, you fess up because I'm not subsidising your infraction. Some parents still demand that kind of accountability when their kids borrow the family car.

- Paul

It would be interesting how the courts would view what is essentially a 'compelled confession'; trading one jeopardy for another.

There are bunch of Leading Thru Arrows in Ottawa and compliance is very poor. Here's a video of an intersection I cycle through on my way to work. In this case, the right turning driver did correctly wait until the green arrow ended before turning, but my estimate is about 90% of right turning drivers just treat the thru arrow like a green ball.

However, there are a ton of them in Montreal and compliance is pretty good. Maybe if they were very widespread, drivers would become more familiar with how they're supposed to behave with them. I highly doubt the Toronto example is performing well considering there's only one example in the entire city.

This example in Ottawa does seem to have very good compliance, thanks to a separate signal head for right turns that remains red during the LTI.

I am convinced a big part of the problem is the province making relatively minor and inconsistent changes that either drivers are unaware of or confuses them. How is a driver expected to keep up on changes? It used to be at least some of them would be in an insert with the registration renewal, but we don't do that anymore. I remember it being the only way I learned that I now had to wait for a pedestrian to completely clear a crossover.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

At one time, I would be able to get a "free" copy of the MTO Driver's Handbook when I renewed my automobile's licence plates or driver's licence. Today, you have to PAY $14.95± for one at a bookstore or order online. Any "changes" to the regulations would be printed, so you could read it at your leisure.

You can view in online, but when was the last time you viewed it at https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook