[robmausser]

It all sounds very dissapointing. So many people will opt to use Uber instead of using these trains if they're as slow as many are claiming.
I was considering taking a trip up to Ottawa to check this out, but it doesn't sound worth it. Maybe I'll wait till the eastern extension of the Confederation line is completed.

Disappointing but easily fixable. At least every problem has a solution that is an add-on to the line, not a ripping up and starting fresh kind of thing

Hopefully soon they will decide to double track every segment possible and allow Line 4 to go straight down to Bayview, and allow a faster Line 2. Eventual electrification would solve the other issues.

 

[OCCheetos]

On the brand-new lines in the greenbelt they created several tight curves just to save a bit on construction costs even though they are in the middle of nowhere and there are no physical contrains. For example between Limebank and Bowesville trains are limited to 60 km/h halfway between stations, where they could otherwise be going 100 km/h.

- The maximum speed anywhere on the line is 80 km/h, even on the 4.8 km of dead-straight track between South Keys and Leitrim. OC Transpo's FLIRT trains are certified up to 120 km/h.

I don't think it's as obviously clear how much of a benefit a higher track speed would be in the southern extension, both because it is not the main bottleneck in end-to-end travel times or headways, and also because there are infill stations planned throughout that section anyway.

The "tight curve" exists because of the floodplain along Mosquito Creek.

 

[reaperexpress]

I don't think it's as obviously clear how much of a benefit a higher track speed would be in the southern extension, both because it is not the main bottleneck in end-to-end travel times or headways, and also because there are infill stations planned throughout that section anyway.

"The least significant item in this list is less significant than the other items in this list"

The "tight curve" exists because of the floodplain along Mosquito Creek.

If only there were some way for a railway to cross a floodplain...

Image by Matt Prosser

 

[Kyle Campbell]

"The least significant item in this list is less significant than the other items in this list"

If only there were some way for a railway to cross a floodplain...

Image by Matt Prosser

Given the expense of building that kind of bridge for minor benefit, it's not worth it. Removing the worst single track choke point at Walkley would be a far more useful use of that kind of money. And the curve really isn't that tight, it's nowhere near the kind of curves line 1 crawls through.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

It all sounds very dissapointing. So many people will opt to use Uber instead of using these trains if they're as slow as many are claiming.
I was considering taking a trip up to Ottawa to check this out, but it doesn't sound worth it. Maybe I'll wait till the eastern extension of the Confederation line is completed.

To be honest, it's better than I was expecting. The original plans and renderings were a masterclass in cheapness.. The stations, trains and experience ended up a fair bit better than that. It depends on what you use as a reference point. Line 2 operates like a frequent commuter rail line. It's got regional style trains, and runs far out into the hinterlands. If you look in it that light, it's quite pleasant compared to GO or Exo. If you compare it to a subway, then you'll be disappointed. It's just the terminus is too far to the west. As Lebreton fills in this will be less of an issue.

 

[reaperexpress]

Given the expense of building that kind of bridge for minor benefit, it's not worth it. Removing the worst single track choke point at Walkley would be a far more useful use of that kind of money. And the curve really isn't that tight, it's nowhere near the kind of curves line 1 crawls through.

You obviously don't need to build a huge viaduct for that tiny creek. You just need to make the bridge a bit longer (10%?) so it can cross the creek at an angle instead of making two 60 km/h curves to cross at 90 degrees.

Again, just because the curves are faster than an unacceptably slow line doesn't make them fast.

And building a wider radius curve in Limebank does not preclude double-tracking Walkley, which was already in my list.

 

[Diez Mil Cantos]

Just a few first day pics from Line 2

Airport/Aéroport Station

Installation at South Keys Station

View attachment 624077

 

[Kyle Campbell]

You obviously don't need to build a huge viaduct for that tiny creek. You just need to make the bridge a bit longer (10%?) so it can cross the creek at an angle instead of making two 60 km/h curves to cross at 90 degrees.

Again, just because the curves are faster than an unacceptably slow line doesn't make them fast.

And building a wider radius curve in Limebank does not preclude double-tracking Walkley, which was already in my list.

It would be quite a bit longer to avoid the flood plain. I mean sure, straighter would be nice, but of all the things where I would put money into Line 2 improvements, that's way down at the bottom of the list as a nice-to-have. There's way better bang for buck improvements elsewhere. Straightening it there would probably shave off all of a minute in travel time at best

 

[ARG1]

Would you say the entire line needs to be double tracked before considering electrification?

The chance that the whole line gets double tracked is basically nil. Specifically, the Dow's Lake Tunnel is almost certainly never going to get a second track. Even if its technically possible to dig open the canal to build one, afaik the trees planted on top of it are dedicated to the deceased and thus have legal protection. However afaik, there's no reason you couldn't get headways to as low as say 6m by double tracking everything else, at which point electrifying will make a lot of sense.

 

[ARG1]

Is that like the glass greenhouses that they like to put at GO stations, with no A/C and only limited heat? I've stood at the new Milliken station and at some times of day, you either sunburn on the platform, die of heat death in the shelter or the top of the stairs. Or go hide in the tunnel to get some shade, but can't see the train.

Every station has at least one enclosed shelter with an on-demand heater, and from my testing on Monday it seems to work really well. 12m wait times means you can generally make good use of it.

 

[CapitalSeven]

I was hoping we wouldn't start up with the "tight curves" thing again. The curves approaching Limebank are in the environs of 1500 feet, and the tightest one in the system is approaching Bowesville, around 1000. You don't even really notice the curve to the airport branch. I don't think they are a significant factor at all.

I did trundle into the slightly heated shelter at South Keys for a couple of minutes. It's better than nothing, though not ideal. While the wait for the train is 7 minutes, the connecting train came after about 4 so you could wait on board.

We'd all like more double tracking to allow closer headways and Airport-Bayview trains. In my view 7.5 minutes should be the next goal. It would allow 15 minutes on each branch, in turn allowing sensible coordination with bus routes in the suburbs. It can also be done without new tunneling under Dow's Lake or doubling the bridge over the Rideau. The city will have to find a way to do it with summer shutdowns only, which initially this expansion was supposed to be. I don't think Ottawans will stand for another total shutdown of years.

 

[dowlingm]

afaik the trees planted on top of it are dedicated to the deceased and thus have legal protection.

That doesn’t sound like a real thing to me (real enough to stop a transit expansion if they needed to do it badly enough)

Does anyone know more about this?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I was hoping we wouldn't start up with the "tight curves" thing again. The curves approaching Limebank are in the environs of 1500 feet, and the tightest one in the system is approaching Bowesville, around 1000. You don't even really notice the curve to the airport branch. I don't think they are a significant factor at all.

I did trundle into the slightly heated shelter at South Keys for a couple of minutes. It's better than nothing, though not ideal. While the wait for the train is 7 minutes, the connecting train came after about 4 so you could wait on board.

We'd all like more double tracking to allow closer headways and Airport-Bayview trains. In my view 7.5 minutes should be the next goal. It would allow 15 minutes on each branch, in turn allowing sensible coordination with bus routes in the suburbs. It can also be done without new tunneling under Dow's Lake or doubling the bridge over the Rideau. The city will have to find a way to do it with summer shutdowns only, which initially this expansion was supposed to be. I don't think Ottawans will stand for another total shutdown of years.

The South Keys shelter, despite being part of the structure, is not very warm at all. Surprisingly, the little standalone shelters at the other stations are far warmer .

The biggest choke point is Walkley. That's supposedly the big barrier to 8 min service, and actually it's the easiest to solve, except it means a shutdown of Walkley Rd to replace the bridge, which I think is why they balked on the Line 2 project.

 

[Bojaxs]

Does anyone have a map/ diagram that shows which parts of line 2 are single track and which parts are double track?

 

[reaperexpress]

I was hoping we wouldn't start up with the "tight curves" thing again. The curves approaching Limebank are in the environs of 1500 feet, and the tightest one in the system is approaching Bowesville, around 1000. You don't even really notice the curve to the airport branch. I don't think they are a significant factor at all.

You don't notice them because the train slows. Are you denying the existence of a 60 km/h limit east of Limebank and 45 km/h limit east of Bowesville?

We'd all like more double tracking to allow closer headways and Airport-Bayview trains. In my view 7.5 minutes should be the next goal. It would allow 15 minutes on each branch, in turn allowing sensible coordination with bus routes in the suburbs. It can also be done without new tunneling under Dow's Lake or doubling the bridge over the Rideau. The city will have to find a way to do it with summer shutdowns only, which initially this expansion was supposed to be. I don't think Ottawans will stand for another total shutdown of years.

The chance that the whole line gets double tracked is basically nil. Specifically, the Dow's Lake Tunnel is almost certainly never going to get a second track. Even if its technically possible to dig open the canal to build one, afaik the trees planted on top of it are dedicated to the deceased and thus have legal protection. However afaik, there's no reason you couldn't get headways to as low as say 6m by double tracking everything else, at which point electrifying will make a lot of sense.

As noted by CapitalSeven, there is no need to double-track the Dow's Lake Tunnel, nor electrify it. It's so short that it can remain single-tracked and unelectrified while still allowing 7.5 min electric service to Bayview.

The travel time between Carlton and Dow's Lake stations is only 3 minutes so even with a single-tracked tunnel service could theoretically run every 6 minutes. Including schedule padding the practical headway is about 7.5 min.

Here's a track configuration that could support trains every 7.5 min on the combined segment of lines 2 and 4 (every 15 min on the branches). Green = existing double track, Red = additional double track required

As others have noted, the biggest gap is at Walkley. Double-tracking as illustrated and electrifying the line (except the tunnel and the maintenance facility) would probably have doubled the project budget but I suspect that it would have doubled the project benefits too since the service would be considerably faster and more frequent. Even if the construction cost had been doubled that's only $80M per km, which is incredibly cheap for what would effectively be a metro line.