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AlvinofDiaspar said:
This is not a PR blunder - it is questionable decision-making and ulterior motives - just like the Greenbelt (unless you want to call flip-flopping on major policy "PR"). Calling it a PR issue cheapens the modus operandi of this government - it's the equivalent to someone using "ha ha, it's just a joke" as an excuse.

Also, the government appointed the board - did the board just realize that the building has long standing maintenance issues? If that is so, I question the competence of the board in their duties and by extension, whose interests are they reflecting.

AoD
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No, it's the opposite, always calling it a conspiracy makes him seem like this scheming criminal mafia boss, when in reality he's just a big buffoon.

Like the beer store thing. For some, a good win, but for others like my conservative dad, doesn't see the point, in reality you're spending 250 million to get beer in corner stores a year early, you didn't need to. It turns a win into a big L.
The greenbelt was another example. You don't call it a criminal conspiracy or bribery quid pro quo. It was an incompetent staffer who will probably be charged by the rcmp. When the heat got too much he backed down.
If anyone remembers that time in 2020 when ford suggested stop-and-frisk laws. Thats another easy L he took for absolutely no reason. Completely avoidable
The Ontario Place, Is the prime example, just straight L after L. all he has to do is be somewhat transparent and literally no one would care.

The point is, All of these blunders he's done are just straight incompetence, if this came out of any other government no one would care if it was done right.
 
generalcanada said:
The greenbelt was another example. You don't call it a criminal conspiracy or bribery quid pro quo. It was an incompetent staffer who will probably be charged by the rcmp.
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I think my memory is good enough to remember he was literally recorded on camera for promises around opening up the Greenbelt before a group of developers - nice try laying the blame on the "incompetent" staffer though. Oh and the Minister that was supposed to be watching and as tossed? He is back in government - so really, don't tell me it is "incompetence" or buffoonery - our premier knows what he is doing.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I think my memory is good enough to remember he was literally recorded on camera for promises around opening up the Greenbelt before a group of developers - nice try laying the blame on the "incompetent" staffer though. Oh and the Minister that was supposed to be watching and as tossed? He is back in government - so really, don't tell me it is "incompetence" or buffoonery - our premier knows what he is doing.

AoD
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Yes - he was recorded as such in 2017 IIRC, after then walking back that promise when it backfired on him during the 2018 election.

Opening up the greenbelt is also not in itself a criminal act. It's a policy choice. Ford had been very anti-opening the greenbelt publicly for 4 years in advance of the decision and most people in the industry did not believe that was going to change.

In 2022, Ford changed his mind. This is not criminal. Or even a scandal. It's politics. He provided direction to the MMAH to identify parcels for removal.

The problem with the Greenbelt Scandal was that the selection process of which parcels to remove was not thorough and was open to influence from outside parties. Ryan Amato was given the task of figuring out what parcels to remove by the upper levels (i.e. Ford) who decided to move forward with it. Given the time pressures, the evidence suggests that instead of relying on preliminary reviews by staffers or opening a general request line for any landowner to ask, he simply removed any parcels which were requested for removal by any developer who managed to figure out what was happening.

And even on that front, it only happened because Amato didn't tell a developer "no" at an industry dinner when asked if they were considering removing parcels, and instead dodged the question. That developer read between the lines then went and told his other developer friends to throw a proposal at the MMAH and see if anything sticks.. and that's pretty much the group that got removed.

What went wrong is an incompetent staffer didn't think through his actions, and the minister failed to question the staffer on how they made the removal selections when presented. Ford's direct involvement was unlikely to be more than providing direction to remove parcels from the greenbelt (a policy direction), and agreeing to the parcels selected in Cabinet on the basis of trust of his Minister.

The blame lies with Clark and really primarily Amato, and even then, I'm not sure it's really a criminal matter. Just incompetence and a failure of Amato and Clark to uphold their professional duties.

Again, assuming there isn't more to the story than what has come to light.
 
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innsertnamehere said:
Yes - he was recorded as such in 2017 IIRC, after then walking back that promise when it backfired on him during the 2018 election.

Opening up the greenbelt is also not in itself a criminal act. It's a policy choice. Ford had been very anti-opening the greenbelt publicly for 4 years in advance of the decision and most people in the industry did not believe that was going to change.

In 2022, Ford changed his mind. This is not criminal. Or even a scandal. It's politics. He provided direction to the MMAH to identify parcels for removal.

The problem with the Greenbelt Scandal was that the selection process of which parcels to remove was not thorough and was open to influence from outside parties. Ryan Amato was given the task of figuring out what parcels to remove by the upper levels (i.e. Ford) who decided to move forward with it. Given the time pressures, the evidence suggests that instead of relying on preliminary reviews by staffers or opening a general request line for any landowner to ask, he simply removed any parcels which were requested for removal by any developer who managed to figure out what was happening.

And even on that front, it only happened because Amato didn't tell a developer "no" at an industry dinner when asked if they were considering removing parcels, and instead dodged the question. That developer then went and told his other developer friends.. and that's pretty much the group that got removed.

There is no evidence (so far) that anyone in the PC party even officially told any developers what was happening, yet alone Ford.

What went wrong is an incompetent staffer didn't think through his actions, and the minister failed to question the staffer on how they made the removal selections when presented. Ford's direct involvement was unlikely to be more than providing direction to remove parcels from the greenbelt (a policy direction), and agreeing to the parcels selected in Cabinet on the basis of trust of his Minister.

The blame lies with Clark and really primarily Amato, and even then, I'm not sure it's really a criminal matter.

Again, assuming there isn't more to the story than what has come to light.
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That's certainly what the government wants us to believe - incompetence and rogue actors, and not calculated maleficence. Odd then that everyone seems to be using their private phones.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
That's certainly what the government wants us to believe - incompetence and rogue actors, and not calculated maleficence. Odd then that everyone seems to be using their private phones.

AoD
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And perhaps it was calculated maleficence. But there simply isn't anything suggesting that much yet. I suspect Hanlon's Razor applies here in that you should mever attribute to malice what which is adequately explained by stupidity.

And I certainly have no problem viewing many within the PC Party's cogs solidly falling into that latter category.

Amato, who has been clearly identified as being far out of his depth in his role, was told he needed to identify parcels ASAP. He looked to the parcels on his desk and said "Good enough", as erroneous as that was. That's likely all it is.
 
innsertnamehere said:
And perhaps it was calculated maleficence. But there simply isn't anything suggesting that much yet. I suspect Hanlon's Razor applies here in that you should mever attribute to malice what which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Amato was told he needed to identify parcels ASAP. He looked to the parcels on his desk and said "Good enough". That's likely all it is.

And I certainly have no problem viewing many within the PC Party's cogs solidly falling into that latter category
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Applying Hanlon's Razor indiscriminately is an invitation to disaster - and given the background of our premier, I am highly likely to reject this as an appropriate assumption.

If there is a maxim - it is thattruly stupid people rarely get into power.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Applying Hanlon's Razor indiscriminately is an invitation to disaster - and given the background of our premier, I am highly likely to reject this as an appropriate assumption. Truly stupid people rarely get into power.

AoD
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your mistake is believing that it originates from the Premiers level.

The stupidity isn't on that level. It's at the political staffer level.

Ford isn't stupid. He just likely didn't have the information. He told his minister to remove land from the greenbelt and tell him what parcels that will be. The minister gave him that list. Ford isn't going to be deeply scrutinizing it.

Did he give specific direction to Amato on what to include? Perhaps, but there isn't evidence of that and frankly I struggle to believe it as Ford would have known he would be putting his entire political career on the line for it given his past experience with touching the Greenbelt in the 2018 election. I just don't see adequate motive.

But the "stupidity" angle doesn't need to involve Ford to reasonably work. All it needs is an incompetent political staffer, which especially within the PC party, is a very, very believable thing.
 
innsertnamehere said:
your mistake is believing that it originates from the Premiers level.

The stupidity isn't on that level. It's at the political staffer level.

Ford isn't stupid. He just likely didn't have the information. He told his minister to remove land from the greenbelt and tell him what parcels that will be. The minister gave him that list. Ford isn't going to be deeply scrutinizing it.

Did he give specific direction to Amato on what to include? Perhaps. But the "stupidity" angle doesn't need to involve Ford to reasonably work.
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Likely didn't - or likely made sure there is no traceable information? We are all too old at this game to read things at face value - you don't use private phones for public communication if you haven't had anything to hide.

AoD
 
hawc said:
^^^^ This.

I think many on this site have a hardcore downtown mentality (coupled with the official Urban_Toronto mantra - Cars are the Devil).

But when your main audience is kids it's a helluva lot easier to get your little ones somewhere by car than by walking and transit.

The OSC was super easy from a family perspective. Realitively cheap, abundant parking (I know, the most evil thing imaginable) and easy accessibility right off the DVP/Don Mills.

We could whip up there from Cabbagetown in literally 10 minutes door to door on a Sunday morning. Versus having to get the kids on a streetcar (currently unfortunately rolling homeless shelters) and grungy unreliable TTC to ROM or AGO.

The car friendliness of the OSC was a huge positive not a negative for the actual people who used it, even if philosophically it goes against what UT theology is.

Take another attraction geared towards families... Little Canada. It's right smack at Dundas station. You literally walk off the platform and you're at the Little Canada entrance in under 100 paces. But that area of town is a hellscape and not being able to easily drive in and and out with cheap parking is actually a deterrent.

Ripley's is honestly a pain to get to as well with young kids, but of course it gets the tourists.
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Though may I report that while I *did* go to the OSC with my family by car, I *also* went there with my non-driving maternal grandparents by TTC--the subway to Pape, then the Don Mills bus up through Thorncliffe. And that had its own distinct worm's-eye charms--my experience of getting there was truly "ambidextrous" (and getting there was always half the fun)

Of course, that was a time when the TTC was less rolling-homeless-shelter grungy--though knowing my grandparents, they'd probably figure a way to let it slide. (Heck, they'd probably be into either ethnic dining in Thorncliffe, or buck-fifty hot-dog-and-Pepsi at the Overlea Costco--there was something about them that was *that* charmingly "immersive". Come to think of it, the hot-dog-and-Pepsi Costco deal's practically a throwback to OSC's early cafeteria fare before they food-courted the gastronomic selection on hand...)
 
...I am also not sure why stupid people are exempt from being malicious here..or with malice being applied with stupidity even. Anyone who has lives near the Madison Avenue Pub can see both in play pretty much every weekend night. Just saying.
 
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Moriyama and Teshima just posted this on IG:

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It's becoming more obvious that this sitting government wanted OSC to be closed. And was trolling for that "Ah-ha!" moment to close it.

It should also be noted that while previous sitting governments did their part in the neglect and upkeep of this institution and should be held in account for this, I do not believe it was ever their intention to have it closed for the most part. So this is something much more new and likely decided with malice and contempt...and not with public's safety and well being in mind, beyond the convenience of using the findings as an excuse.

Or tl,dr: They're lying their asses off to the public about this. /sigh
 
UtakataNoAnnex said:
It's becoming more obvious that this sitting government wanted OSC to be closed. And was trolling for that "Ah-ha!" moment to close it.

It should also be noted that while previous sitting governments did their part in the neglect and upkeep of this institution and should be held in account for this, I do not believe it was ever their intention to have it closed for the most part. So this is something much more new and likely decided with malice and contempt...and not with public's safety and well being in mind, beyond the convenience of using the findings as an excuse.

Or tl,dr: They're lying their asses off to the public about this. /sigh
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And they might point to pieces like this and say: "See? We have cross-partisan support!" (And *of course* Heather Malick would be of this POV)

www.thestar.com

Heather Mallick: The Science Centre was an ugly grey box in Don Mills. We have bigger things to worry about than keeping it alive

Ontario Premier Doug Ford closed the science centre fast and his critics are suspicious and irate. That this was Ford’s dream come true doesn’t make him wrong.
www.thestar.com www.thestar.com
 
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