[micheal_can]

I agree.

Though would be branching it not be an option? I don't think demand would be near as high west of Dufferin (or north of Danforth). The visioning document almost makes it look like the lines to Oshawa and Burlington could be branches.

I can hear the whines of people who want their area served by rail transit that think they have higher need than another line that will be a branch line. To me, the Oshawa route could be served by extending the Sheppard line and the Burlington route could be served by extending the Bloor line. If the Sheppard line was extended to the Airport and beyond, it would help. Not everyone needs to go to Union. Not everyone needs to go to Front St. Having 2 U lines connecting the other 2 lines would help better serve the city on a whole.

 

[afransen]

To me, the Oshawa route could be served by extending the Sheppard line and the Burlington route could be served by extending the Bloor line.

That is just never going to happen. Nor should it. Anyone who thinks subway from Burlington to Toronto is superior transit service needs to have their head examined.

 

[micheal_can]

That is just never going to happen. Nor should it. Anyone who thinks subway from Burlington to Toronto is superior transit service needs to have their head examined.

Then why was it even brought up on this thread?

If we pause and think,maybe riding a subway from one end of the GTA to the other is ludicrous, but having a subway system out in the suburbs will make sense. having it connected to each other also makes sense. Ideally, for short trips, you take the subway,but for longer trips, you take the much faster GO RER. Tome, it is all about a layered transit system. So, if transit planners were ever looking at connections to tie in their systems to existing systems, then, the ones I mentioned makes the most sense. With fare integration, having those layers means that the best way to get around for everyone will not always be one mode or another. You might hop on a bus to a subway station to a GO RER station to a subway station to a bus to get to your destination.

 

[afransen]

Then why was it even brought up on this thread?

If we pause and think,maybe riding a subway from one end of the GTA to the other is ludicrous, but having a subway system out in the suburbs will make sense. having it connected to each other also makes sense. Ideally, for short trips, you take the subway,but for longer trips, you take the much faster GO RER. Tome, it is all about a layered transit system. So, if transit planners were ever looking at connections to tie in their systems to existing systems, then, the ones I mentioned makes the most sense. With fare integration, having those layers means that the best way to get around for everyone will not always be one mode or another. You might hop on a bus to a subway station to a GO RER station to a subway station to a bus to get to your destination.

The capacity required in Burlington or Oshawa will be far lower than that required in Toronto. So extending a line from Toronto to Burlington with the same rolling stock means you must overbuild the platforms and stations for longer trains, run trains less frequently, or run nearly empty trains. I think the burbs would be better served with short, frequent, automated Skytrain style rolling stock that run mostly elevated or at grade.

 

[duffo]

Everyone is missing the point. The Province is clearly envisioning the OL will become the GTA's version of Montreal's REM. The REM uses the same technology with long stop spacing and high frequencies to provide ample capacity in suburbs. It's 70km in length, with the distance between Burlington GO and Oshawa GO being roughly double that. Technically feasible? It seems like it.

 

[junctionist]

GO Transit's Lakeshore West line serves Burlington well already. Burlington needs more frequent GO service and better connections to other parts of the GTA aside from Union. For instance, it takes 42 minutes to drive from my in laws' house to Terminal 1 at the moment.

By contrast, it takes 2 hours and 1 minute at the moment to go by transit, which is a ridiculous difference compared with driving. The trip requires going through Union Station, which shows you how damaging it is to route every line through Union without rapid transit connections between GO lines in the suburbs. There's a bus that takes the 407 from Burlington to the airport, but service isn't frequent. Even so, it would only shave the travel time by 20 minutes because the 407 is far from most of Burlington.

Similarly, Square One mall is 31 minutes away by car or 1 hour and 38 minutes by transit. That's in part why there's so much traffic on the QEW and the streets of suburbs like Mississauga. A lot of people don't need to go to Union and must travel around the GTA by car because transit is so slow.

 

[micheal_can]

Everyone is missing the point. The Province is clearly envisioning the OL will become the GTA's version of Montreal's REM. The REM uses the same technology with long stop spacing and high frequencies to provide ample capacity in suburbs. It's 70km in length, with the distance between Burlington GO and Oshawa GO being roughly double that. Technically feasible? It seems like it.

I am wondering if it will be at capacity shortly after opening day. If the current under construction section is at or near capacity within a year of opening day, then it shows a REM like system will notwork in Toronto/GTA. Put a pin at Union station and do a radius out 100km. Do the same at Central station. Montreal is not nearly as dense or as populated as Toronto is. Neither are their suburbs and exurbs.

The REM is Montreal's answer to GO RER. It is built for the area that it is serving. The OL will be a good relief line for Line 1, but it will likely not have the capacity to be a REM style system.

 

[Northern Light]

This thread seems to be getting sidetracked by someone's fantasies.......... This thread is not about the Ontario Line or any other tech in the Lakeshore Corridor, it is solely, and entirely about the northern extension of the Ontario Line, from its eastern terminus.

****

That said, @junctionist had me curious about transit times, obvviously I don't know his inlaws address, so I just plugged in GO Burlington Station as the start point just to see, what the route times were and if there was any room to lower those materially, after which such discussion could be moved somewhere more material.

For the Airport, I got 1 hr 28 from Burlington GO Stn, using the 407 bus connection.

The trip via Union, (train) then UPX gets you 1 hr 49

I'm not sure how one could the bus'es travel time.

The rail connection shows 1hr 4M from Burlington to Union, which likely makes the case for an express option not available today.

Resetting the date/time to use a GO Express train, cuts the train trip from 1hr 4 to 51M and produces an overall travel time of 1hr 32M.

Other than a modest further reduction from electrification, I'm not sure you get that number much lower, unless GO Rail Corridor operates roughly from the airport to Burlington via the 407 corridor for the most part.

***

Travel to Square One:

Best travel time via bus: 1hr 5 with the 407 corridor (2) then the 40

Best travel time via Train (LSW): 1hr 26 (takes you to Oakville where you catch the 56)

 

[ARG1]

This thread seems to be getting sidetracked by someone's fantasies.......... This thread is not about the Ontario Line or any other tech in the Lakeshore Corridor, it is solely, and entirely about the northern extension of the Ontario Line, from its eastern terminus.

****

That said, @junctionist had me curious about transit times, obvviously I don't know his inlaws address, so I just plugged in GO Burlington Station as the start point just to see, what the route times were and if there was any room to lower those materially, after which such discussion could be moved somewhere more material.

For the Airport, I got 1 hr 28 from Burlington GO Stn, using the 407 bus connection.

The trip via Union, (train) then UPX gets you 1 hr 49

I'm not sure how one could the bus'es travel time.

The rail connection shows 1hr 4M from Burlington to Union, which likely makes the case for an express option not available today.

Resetting the date/time to use a GO Express train, cuts the train trip from 1hr 4 to 51M and produces an overall travel time of 1hr 32M.

Other than a modest further reduction from electrification, I'm not sure you get that number much lower, unless GO Rail Corridor operates roughly from the airport to Burlington via the 407 corridor for the most part.

***

Travel to Square One:

Best travel time via bus: 1hr 5 with the 407 corridor (2) then the 40

Best travel time via Train (LSW): 1hr 26 (takes you to Oakville where you catch the 56)

We're not discussing "someone's fantasies", but rather the very real crayons that the MTO published a few years ago regarding the future of the Ontario Line - those being an extension to RHC that then follows the 407 to the airport than down to Kipling, and a second "Burlington to Oshawa Line" via MCC, Pearson, RHC, and Unionville with an as of yet defined mode.

 

[junctionist]

This thread seems to be getting sidetracked by someone's fantasies.......... This thread is not about the Ontario Line or any other tech in the Lakeshore Corridor, it is solely, and entirely about the northern extension of the Ontario Line, from its eastern terminus.

****

That said, @junctionist had me curious about transit times, obvviously I don't know his inlaws address, so I just plugged in GO Burlington Station as the start point just to see, what the route times were and if there was any room to lower those materially, after which such discussion could be moved somewhere more material.

For the Airport, I got 1 hr 28 from Burlington GO Stn, using the 407 bus connection.

The trip via Union, (train) then UPX gets you 1 hr 49

I'm not sure how one could the bus'es travel time.

The rail connection shows 1hr 4M from Burlington to Union, which likely makes the case for an express option not available today.

Resetting the date/time to use a GO Express train, cuts the train trip from 1hr 4 to 51M and produces an overall travel time of 1hr 32M.

Other than a modest further reduction from electrification, I'm not sure you get that number much lower, unless GO Rail Corridor operates roughly from the airport to Burlington via the 407 corridor for the most part.

***

Travel to Square One:

Best travel time via bus: 1hr 5 with the 407 corridor (2) then the 40

Best travel time via Train (LSW): 1hr 26 (takes you to Oakville where you catch the 56)

They live a 10-15 minute drive from Appleby GO station. They are placed far from the 407 bus line but relatively close to the Lakeshore West line. The transit times I mentioned were taken from Google Maps at the time of writing (which was a reasonable time to go to the airport or to Square One mall). They included travelling to the GO station by the local bus line.

Even if you drive to the GO station, it's still much longer to take transit than to drive to the airport or to Square One. You save some time by driving to the station (with the local bus taking about 20 minutes to get to the station), but you still have to account for the 10 minutes in your car in the overall travel time by transit.

We have a solution for making suburb-to-Union trips efficient, which will hopefully be rolled out quickly--all-day bidirectional service using electric trains. However, solving the issue of making these suburb-to-suburb trips efficient to do by transit is the challenge of our generation. I think it'll take entirely new grade-separated transit lines (for instance, REM-style lines), located entirely in the 905 and connecting the GO rail lines with major trip generators.

 

[Sunnyside]

This thread seems to be getting sidetracked by someone's fantasies.......... This thread is not about the Ontario Line or any other tech in the Lakeshore Corridor, it is solely, and entirely about the northern extension of the Ontario Line, from its eastern terminus.

****

That said, @junctionist had me curious about transit times, obvviously I don't know his inlaws address, so I just plugged in GO Burlington Station as the start point just to see, what the route times were and if there was any room to lower those materially, after which such discussion could be moved somewhere more material.

For the Airport, I got 1 hr 28 from Burlington GO Stn, using the 407 bus connection.

The trip via Union, (train) then UPX gets you 1 hr 49

I'm not sure how one could the bus'es travel time.

The rail connection shows 1hr 4M from Burlington to Union, which likely makes the case for an express option not available today.

Resetting the date/time to use a GO Express train, cuts the train trip from 1hr 4 to 51M and produces an overall travel time of 1hr 32M.

Other than a modest further reduction from electrification, I'm not sure you get that number much lower, unless GO Rail Corridor operates roughly from the airport to Burlington via the 407 corridor for the most part.

***

Travel to Square One:

Best travel time via bus: 1hr 5 with the 407 corridor (2) then the 40

Best travel time via Train (LSW): 1hr 26 (takes you to Oakville where you catch the 56)

It would be nice if Hamilton and Burlington, along with other far-flung parts of the region, could be serviced with ultra-express routes- effectively Intercity stop spacing. That would materially reduce travel times. Today, if you actually snag a VIA Train from Aldershot, it will get you to Union in 40 minutes. There are countless issues with said service, but limited stops from this far out have noticeable travel improvements.

In this case, I am imagining a LSW Ultra-Express that goes Union--PC/Oakville--Burlington--Hamilton/WH--Brantford or Niagara.

The alternative is asking VIA to increase the frequency and reliability of their own trains to be a reasonable commuting option from Aldershot (today) or Oakville. But that is impractical, both because VIA probably can't guarantee anything like this, and because it's not really part of their mandate (nor to compete with GO).

We are well off-topic, though. The 403/407 'Interregional' Rail Line would serve this trip the easiest out of any option. I don't know how fast that would be, but I would feel comfortable comparing the travel time to the drive today or a little more; around 40-60 mins? Depends on stop spacing really. But the buses today have to exit the highway to stop, so just removing those maneuvers blows any RT on the corridor way past the buses today.

 

[Sauga89]

This thread seems to be getting sidetracked by someone's fantasies.......... This thread is not about the Ontario Line or any other tech in the Lakeshore Corridor, it is solely, and entirely about the northern extension of the Ontario Line, from its eastern terminus.

****

That said, @junctionist had me curious about transit times, obvviously I don't know his inlaws address, so I just plugged in GO Burlington Station as the start point just to see, what the route times were and if there was any room to lower those materially, after which such discussion could be moved somewhere more material.

For the Airport, I got 1 hr 28 from Burlington GO Stn, using the 407 bus connection.

The trip via Union, (train) then UPX gets you 1 hr 49

I'm not sure how one could the bus'es travel time.

The rail connection shows 1hr 4M from Burlington to Union, which likely makes the case for an express option not available today.

Resetting the date/time to use a GO Express train, cuts the train trip from 1hr 4 to 51M and produces an overall travel time of 1hr 32M.

Other than a modest further reduction from electrification, I'm not sure you get that number much lower, unless GO Rail Corridor operates roughly from the airport to Burlington via the 407 corridor for the most part.

***

Travel to Square One:

Best travel time via bus: 1hr 5 with the 407 corridor (2) then the 40

Best travel time via Train (LSW): 1hr 26 (takes you to Oakville where you catch the 56)

We are admittedly very far off topic.

The suburb to suburb type trip is a big, big problem though I think. My read of the GO schedule says 4 GO buses an hour leave Square One for Unionville GO during morning rush hour. It takes them an hour and fifteen minutes to get there, if they arrive on time. That's an average speed of 40 km/h. I imagine a lot of people simply drive. It would be faster, since as @Sunnyside notes, a car wouldn't have to get off the highway at every stop.

This probably isn't the thread for this though, I admit, but I'm not sure if there is a good one for this. Is there a thread for suburb to suburb trips? I suppose the fantasy map thread or the 407/missing link thread might also be better. We could also I suppose create a thread for that 403/407 interregional concept.

 

[micheal_can]

We are admittedly very far off topic.

The suburb to suburb type trip is a big, big problem though I think. My read of the GO schedule says 4 GO buses an hour leave Square One for Unionville GO during morning rush hour. It takes them an hour and fifteen minutes to get there, if they arrive on time. That's an average speed of 40 km/h. I imagine a lot of people simply drive. It would be faster, since as @Sunnyside notes, a car wouldn't have to get off the highway at every stop.

This probably isn't the thread for this though, I admit, but I'm not sure if there is a good one for this. Is there a thread for suburb to suburb trips? I suppose the fantasy map thread or the 407/missing link thread might also be better. We could also I suppose create a thread for that 403/407 inter-regional concept.

Since the MTO released a map showing the OL going to the suburbs, it is not that off topic. It would be much different if someone like myself did draw it up and then posted it. As far as where it fits, I sometimes think those types of releases should have their own thread so that we can flesh it out fully without bogging down everything else. However, that then would make a mess of the UT forum.

The reality is, by the time they get around to building an extension the conceptual plans and what is built will be 2 totally different things. As soon as the OL line opens, the next phase needs to be already under construction. Ironically, the GTA needs to build transit like Ottawa seems to be. They finished phase one and quickly moved to phase 2. So, the OL is supposed to be done by 2031. So, by 2030, a contract needs to be awarded and shovels in the ground. To me, that is more important than where it goes.

 

[duffo]

I think this thread should just be renamed to be about all future OL extensions, since there is no longer any specific plan to extend only north (like the previous Relief Line North plan). The OL Loop plan, with the potential 407 Transitway interlining, does seem like it will proceed within Metrolinx's next planning horizon.

 

[Sauga89]

Since the MTO released a map showing the OL going to the suburbs, it is not that off topic.

Is this the MTO document you're referring to? I believe it calls for an Ontario Line extension to Pearson, and separately, also calls for a new rail line between Burlington and Oshawa along the 403/407. It does not call for an Ontario line extension into the suburbs.

To get back to the Ontario line, I kind of like a Sheppard extension west to Pearson better, with only a GO line along the 407.

I also wonder if a heavy rail line along the 407 could include bypass tracks for CN. There's a 15 km long section of CN track between CN's Macmillan Yard and Unionville, that to my eyes, looks more densely populated than the land along the 407. I was thinking (and someone can tell me why I'm an idiot), that if you built a heavy rail corridor along the 407 for GO, you could add a couple tracks for CN, pay CN a relocation fee and then build a rapid transit line along CN's current 15 km corridor. That makes more sense to me than building an Ontario line extension along the 407 parallel to a GO line.

You could also then extend that new line south along the Barrie GO line to the Finch hydro corridor, and reach Pearson that way if you don’t like a Sheppard west extension.

(I will note that this assumes a heavy rail line along the 407 is even possible. I am not an engineer. Given that the Ontario Liberals proposed the missing link, I am assuming heavy rail along the 407 is not impossible.)