[Lone Primate]

yes obviously the people threatening him are idiots as well and are in the wrong,
but that's not the point, you know i was referring to him not being able to sleep before even creating the petition as a sign of first world problems

I understand what you're saying, but seriously, what's wrong with someone coming here from elsewhere looking at the flag of the province he's worked hard to make his home and seeing only people who settled here in the 1850s reflected on it? I'm largely of British Isles descent myself, but even I look at our provincial flag and think it's probably long past time we had something more inclusive flying beside the Maple Leaf. The Union Jack? The Cross of St. George? There's not even a reference to Franco-Ontariens, let alone the myriad others who've not only moved here since 1791, but even the others living here or moving here at the time. If that guy's an immigrant, he worked a lot harder to get here than most of the rest of us. Surely he's earned to right to sing Anne Murray's lyrics, "Hey, what about me?"

 

[Lone Primate]

There, clicked on the toolbar for you in insert the image.

I'm really surprised to learn this is as old as it is. I mean, obviously they've taken it off the shelf and shined it up a little. Not to be disparaging of it, but if you hadn't told me otherwise, I'd have assumed this was some flag China dreamed up for Tibet or something like that.

 

[Lennox970]

A wonderful design. Surprisingly, pretty much all the 39 English counties have striking, high quality flag designs, and many of them are recent creations. And guess what? Not one of them bears a Union Jack!

English counties formed mostly between the 7th and 11th centuries.
The Union Jack dates from early 18th century,
....and no county flag bears a Union Jack?

 

[Towered]

English counties formed mostly between the 7th and 11th centuries.
The Union Jack dates from early 18th century,
....and no county flag bears a Union Jack?

Many of those counties have only recently adopted flags (within the last 20 years or so) and many are new designs. Still, none of them felt it necessary to include a Union Jack.

 

[MisterF]

I understand what you're saying, but seriously, what's wrong with someone coming here from elsewhere looking at the flag of the province he's worked hard to make his home and seeing only people who settled here in the 1850s reflected on it? I'm largely of British Isles descent myself, but even I look at our provincial flag and think it's probably long past time we had something more inclusive flying beside the Maple Leaf. The Union Jack? The Cross of St. George? There's not even a reference to Franco-Ontariens, let alone the myriad others who've not only moved here since 1791, but even the others living here or moving here at the time. If that guy's an immigrant, he worked a lot harder to get here than most of the rest of us. Surely he's earned to right to sing Anne Murray's lyrics, "Hey, what about me?"

I don't think it's fair to say that the Union Jack on the flag only represents people of British descent. It's meant to show our British heritage as a society, not of individual people. Those of us who aren't of British descent are part of that culture just as much as those who are. That said, I do think it's a bit silly to have a flag with a Union Jack on it in the 21st century.

Some of the designs proposed a few pages back are on the right track, IMO. The trillium and some combination of red, gold, white, blue, and/or green are a great starting point. 5 colours is probably too many though.

 

[afransen]

I found a page of proposals on a vexillology site:

Ontario

The flag of Ontario was enacted by the Flag Act on May 21, 1965 in the Legislature of the Province of Ontario. The flag is a defaced Red Ensign, with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland's Union Flag in the canton and the Ontario shield of arms in the fly. In 1964, the...

vexillology.fandom.com

I don't mind this one, by FNTS1

Please--nothing with the three guys in a hottub Ontario logo! I think replacing the green with red would look better and be a nod to the Canadian flag.

 

[Lennox970]

I don't think it's fair to say that the Union Jack on the flag only represents people of British descent. It's meant to show our British heritage as a society, not of individual people. Those of us who aren't of British descent are part of that culture just as much as those who are. That said, I do think it's a bit silly to have a flag with a Union Jack on it in the 21st century.

Some of the designs proposed a few pages back are on the right track, IMO. The trillium and some combination of red, gold, white, blue, and/or green are a great starting point. 5 colours is probably too many though.

You are absolutely correct. Ontario is a place, not a nationality or ethnicity. Our flag can represent everyone who calls it our home, without reference to their background. In this, the flag can be of comparatively recent origin but possess symbology with historic origins. And the idea that it should somehow represent every single identity within its boundaries is a prescription too far. I haven’t heard anything like that, for example, about the Alberta flag.

The divide may be between those who see the flag as colonial, and those who don’t. To be honest, I am in that second category. Many will just see a maze of red, white & blues with some green and gold that has been our province’s flag their entire life (and probably never given it any thought). The Union jack may be of historic origin (just like our English language, the common law, etc) but it doesn’t signify the slightest any ‘colonial’ obligation or ethnic affiliation whatsoever. Simply put, there is no disconnect between the diverse Ontario of today, and having a flag with the Union jack on it.

I genuinely cannot understand those who see it any different. OK, there will always be people with a chip on their shoulder over the UK/UJ. I get that. But this rehashed Red Ensign flag debate from the 1960s is nothing more than ancient history with no relevance today (or to anyone born after the 1950s).

 

[Lennox970]

Many of those counties have only recently adopted flags (within the last 20 years or so) and many are new designs. Still, none of them felt it necessary to include a Union Jack.

Some flags may have been recently adopted, most will have ancient symbology associated with their localities. No Union Jacks, but don't understand why they would, English counties entirely different context than N America. But I noticed Lincolnshire has the fleur-de-lis. Hope that doesn't make them French colonials.

 

[Lone Primate]

I just came across this clipping from my old files. As I recall, I didn't agree with the sentiments at the time, but as the years have past, I've grown increasingly to agree with some of what's being said here. In any case, this was a letter to The Star that they printed waaayyyy back on Sept. 19, 1987...

Ontario's flag isn't representative

The patriation of the Constitution in 1982 made Canada, at long last, legally and technically independent from Britain.

Unfortunately, Canada is still colonially and symbolically subordinate in carrying Britain’s symbols.

Ontario’s so-called provincial flag, for one, is nothing more than an 18th century British naval squadron-rank flag — the red ensign version with three sickly maple leaves dominated and crowned by England’s cross of St. George.

The total Canadian content of this flag is less than 10 per cent,, Isn’t it time for Ontario to finally have a flag representing its plural reality with total Canadian symbolism?

ROBERT HANULAK Etobicoke

 

[Admiral Beez]

But this rehashed Red Ensign flag debate from the 1960s is nothing more than ancient history with no relevance today (or to anyone born after the 1950s).

I was born in 1971 and it matters to me. I like the Red Ensign flag, though I am an UK-born, ethnically English Canadian and a fan of British colonial history, though increasingly less so the military side, having just finished the very interesting British in India and recently having read Kim, Passage to India and the excellent Burmese Days by George Orwell (some history here). Whenever I travel the world I am forever looking for remnants of the Empire, such as my visits to Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Bermuda, various Caribbean islands and of course the forts across Canada and the colonial US. I haven‘t been back to the UK since 2005 but the global history of the place is set in my bones.

But all that aside, times change, and I’d be fine with changing the flag. I expect after HM dies (presumably in this decade) and His Majesty ascends the thrown many territories and countries will begin reassessing their symbolic connections to the Crown.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I was born in 1971 and it matters to me. I like the Red Ensign flag, though I am an UK-born, ethnically English Canadian and a fan of British colonial history, though increasingly less so the military side, having just finished the very interesting British in India and recently having read Kim, Passage to India and the excellent Burmese Days by George Orwell (some history here). Whenever I travel the world I am forever looking for remnants of the Empire, such as my visits to Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Bermuda, various Caribbean islands and of course the forts across Canada and the colonial US. I haven‘t been back to the UK since 2005 but the global history of the place is set in my bones.

But all that aside, times change, and I’d be fine with changing the flag. I expect after HM dies (presumably in this decade) and His Majesty ascends the thrown many territories and countries will begin reassessing their symbolic connections to the Crown.

Funnily enough, I am more for changing the Ontario flag and less for reassessing the constitutional (and symbolic) connections to the Crown. Not a Monarchist by any long shot, but there is something about the continuity that is at least somewhat appealing.

AoD

 

[Lennox970]

I just came across this clipping from my old files. As I recall, I didn't agree with the sentiments at the time, but as the years have past, I've grown increasingly to agree with some of what's being said here. In any case, this was a letter to The Star that they printed waaayyyy back on Sept. 19, 1987...

Ontario's flag isn't representative

The patriation of the Constitution in 1982 made Canada, at long last, legally and technically independent from Britain.

Unfortunately, Canada is still colonially and symbolically subordinate in carrying Britain’s symbols.

Ontario’s so-called provincial flag, for one, is nothing more than an 18th century British naval squadron-rank flag — the red ensign version with three sickly maple leaves dominated and crowned by England’s cross of St. George.

The total Canadian content of this flag is less than 10 per cent,, Isn’t it time for Ontario to finally have a flag representing its plural reality with total Canadian symbolism?

ROBERT HANULAK Etobicoke

A very interesting topic, IMO. I fully admit that I am challenged how in a country that is mature and self-confident in every respect, some still do not see our provincial flag as Canadian.

This can be contrasted, for example, by how other formerly imperial symbols are considered 'Canadian' and some 'colonial'. For example, a uniform that is 90% based on a British Army cavalry regiment (RCMP uniform) or the Imperial ensign of the French empire (Quebec fleurs de lis) have explicit imperial ties. Yet try campaigning against them....

My own theories are that:

i. We are chained to the 1960s national flag debate - it has now been decided that Red Ensign = colonial, consequently our discourse on the Union Jack can never move beyond that limit.
ii. Alternatively, a case of North American throw away culture. Like so much of our urban built heritage, our other heritage is equally disposable.

Sorry, not being deliberately argumentative, just probing where this leads!

 

[lenaitch]

I wonder if the people of the State of Hawaii stay up at night wondering if their flag directly speaks to everyone, offends no one and is rooted in the past thus impairing their maturity as a people.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I wonder if the people of the State of Hawaii stay up at night wondering if their flag directly speaks to everyone, offends no one and is rooted in the past thus impairing their maturity as a people.

Probably less than a provincial legislature that pointedly chose to adopt one as a reaction against the national government choosing one that was, in said provincial legislature's opinion - divorced from tradition. I guess we found out which flag really speak to whom 60 years afterwards.

AoD

 

[Johnny Au]

I wonder if the people of the State of Hawaii stay up at night wondering if their flag directly speaks to everyone, offends no one and is rooted in the past thus impairing their maturity as a people.

General Knowledge explained why the Hawaiian flag has a Union Jack: