[UtakataNoAnnex]

^No it really doesn't...

...either way, each side having documented genocidal tendencies does not make right here. Something that cannot be resolved by bombings, war and/or nukes....but that should really go without saying.

 

[zang]

There might a philosophical difference between a belief that a certain group of peoples doesn't exist as identifiable group and a belief that one that does exist should exist no longer.

So, Bibi is indiscriminately killing what he considers his own people? Starving his own people? Or forcing his own people to carry papers to travel and allowing the theft of their land in the West Bank?

Besides, a quote that is roughly 50 years old?

Don't kid yourself. Netanyahu knows damn well what "Palestinian" is in 2025.

 

[afransen]

Remind me again which country and people has Israel declared should cease to exist.

It seems like Israel is actively trying to make Palestinians cease to exist. Both in the sense of ethnic identity and civilian casualties.

 

[EBT]

You dodged my question. How many days out from a nuclear test would it have been acceptable for the US to attack?

Also, I never claimed they were close. I specifically said that the US Intelligence Community said the Iranians were 3 years away.

Finally, why exactly were they enriching uranium to such high levels? You don't need those levels of enrichment for power generation. And this is exactly the problem with this construct. They get to toe the line ever closer till right before the big reveal.

You realize that Iran is a signatory of the NPT and was subject to regular on-site IAEA inspections? Guess which Middle Eastern country is not a signatory to the NPT? Israel! Israel is estimated to have 90 nuclear warheads. Israel has had these nuclear weapons obtained from stolen American nuclear material and technology since the mid-1960s. President John F. Kennedy tried to prevent Israel from obtaining nuclear weapons before he was assassinated. I'm old enough to remember the day JFK was assassinated.

It is true that at 60% enrichment, Iran was way above the level needed for nuclear power generation, which requires somewhat less than 5%, but it was still permissible under the NPT agreement. So why did Iran enrich to such high levels? Simple. For negotiation purposes. Also, there are advantages of being a nuclear threshold state even if you do not want to go the final step, because if needed, it would not take long for Iran to build a nuclear weapon, if needed and as Israel and the United States demonstrated, an atomic weapon was needed by Iran.

I don't think Iran will make the same mistake again. Iran will quickly reconstitute its nuclear program, most likely using the highly enriched uranium and centrifuges, which they claim were removed to safe areas before the attack. These are highly mobile items. I suspect that Iran will cease to be a signatory of the NPT and will never allow IAEA inspectors into the country again. That was a fatal mistake Iran made. There can be no doubt that it was IAEA inspectors who gave Israel and the United States the vital intelligence on Iran's nuclear programs that was then used to justify and plan an attack on Iran. How did the Americans know the intricate layout of the Fordow underground complex?

Iran should have developed nuclear weapons in secret, just as North Korea (and Israel) did. Trump would not dare order an attack on North Korea's nuclear facilities. Instead, in his first term, he exchanged love letters with Supreme Leader Kim Jong Un. Had Iran had nuclear weapons AND very importantly long-range ICBMs that can reach the U.S. east coast, there is NO WAY that Trump would have so cavalierly ordered an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities.

 

[Northern Light]

It seems like Israel is actively trying to make Palestinians cease to exist. Both in the sense of ethnic identity and civilian casualties.

Ok....without in anyway condoning reckless, violent conduct..........

That's running away with things.......

The accepted number of Palestinian casualties to date, in the current war is somewhere in 50,000 to 70,000 range.

There are over 2,000,000 Palestinians in Gaza alone so we're in the range of 2-3% of that population.

Beyond the usual issues (illegal settlements etc.), Israel is not engaging in war on the West Bank which has another 3,000,000 Palestinians.

Anything resembling genocide would be far more catastrophic at this point.

That's not suggesting that the losses for Palestinians are substantial, and that quality of life for the remaining Gaza residents isn't generally miserable.

Just lets keep the critique factual.

 

[narduch]

When the dust settles in Gaza a lot of people will regret having supported Israel.

Of course a lot of people are monsters so they will probably be happy with the outcome

 

[narduch]

Ok....without in anyway condoning reckless, violent conduct..........

That's running away with things.......

The accepted number of Palestinian casualties to date, in the current war is somewhere in 50,000 to 70,000 range.

There are over 2,000,000 Palestinians in Gaza alone so we're in the range of 2-3% of that population.

Beyond the usual issues (illegal settlements etc.), Israel is not engaging in war on the West Bank which has another 3,000,000 Palestinians.

Anything resembling genocide would be far more catastrophic at this point.

That's not suggesting that the losses for Palestinians are substantial, and that quality of life for the remaining Gaza residents isn't generally miserable.

Just lets keep the critique factual.

No offense but that death count is severely low.

Based on the ongoing atrocities Israel is still doing in Gaza it will be in the hundreds of thousands after they finish starving everyone

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

Ok....without in anyway condoning reckless, violent conduct..........

That's running away with things.......

The accepted number of Palestinian casualties to date, in the current war is somewhere in 50,000 to 70,000 range.

There are over 2,000,000 Palestinians in Gaza alone so we're in the range of 2-3% of that population.

Beyond the usual issues (illegal settlements etc.), Israel is not engaging in war on the West Bank which has another 3,000,000 Palestinians.

Anything resembling genocide would be far more catastrophic at this point.

That's not suggesting that the losses for Palestinians are substantial, and that quality of life for the remaining Gaza residents isn't generally miserable.

Just lets keep the critique factual.

The claim here to my understanding is one of expressed desire and intent and not necessarily numbers in casualties. So one jurisdiction just needs to put the squeeze on an ethnic group in the hopes they get choked out is enough to declare the G-word here. So in the case of Iran, if their expressed intent is to wipe Israel off the face earth ..or in the case of Israel, uproot Palestinians from Gaza for "cleaning out" purposes, they would be both complicit of being genocidal. The term is used for one group wishing the other to literally go away and then making public policies to that effect and ends. And casualties then will most likely follow.

Edit: I think I am going to need some heavily dosed brain bleach after discussing this subject matter... >.<

 

[Northern Light]

No offense but that death count is severely low.

Based on the ongoing atrocities Israel is still doing in Gaza it will be in the hundreds of thousands after they finish starving everyone

No offense taken, but I consulted multiple sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war - 57,800 as at June 18 - source Gaza Health Ministry.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker - 61, 709 - source Al Jazeera

And several more.

None reported tolls currently above 70,000.

I'm a stickler for accuracy. Its not like I'm lowballing here, or minimizing the substantial loss of life. I simply think we need to discuss things as they are, based on verifiable facts and data or as close as we can get to same.

For comparison, the Rwandan Genocide took place over a period of 100 days, and saw losses of life between 500,000 - 660,000 Tutsi (the victimized population) along with more than 100,000 moderate Hutus and others.

It also resulted in 2,000,000 fleeing the country.

****

I am not suggesting the because the horror here is lesser, so far, that it is somehow not a horror, simply that the two cannot be mathematically equated, thus far. Lets hope that there is no future point in which they can.

 

[narduch]

No offense taken, but I consulted multiple sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war - 57,800 as at June 18 - source Gaza Health Ministry.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker - 61, 709 - source Al Jazeera

And several more.

None reported tolls currently above 70,000.

I'm a stickler for accuracy. Its not like I'm lowballing here, or minimizing the substantial loss of life. I simply think we need to discuss things as they are, based on verifiable facts and data or as close as we can get to same.

For comparison, the Rwandan Genocide took place over a period of 100 days, and saw losses of life between 500,000 - 660,000

It also resulted in 2,000,000 fleeing the country.

****

I am not suggesting the because the horror here is lesser, so far, that it is somehow not a horror, simply that the two cannot be mathematically equated, thus far. Lets hope that there is no future point in which they can.

Those are only deaths where they found the bodies.

The IDF's own estimates are that 377,000 people have gone 'missing' in Gaza. I guess because those people aren't an 'official' death statistic yet you can pat yourself on the back and tell yourself it isn't a genocide.

 

[kEiThZ]

When the dust settles in Gaza a lot of people will regret having supported Israel.

When the dust settles in Gaza, they'll really question whether October 7th was the brilliant masterstroke they thought it was on October 8th. Hopefully the war that has followed will deter such attacks again.

No offense but that death count is severely low.

Says the Hamas run Gaza Ministry of Health. Let's see independent non-partisan sources. And at this point, given UNRWA's compromise, even they're out.

 

[kEiThZ]

Iran should have developed nuclear weapons in secret, just as North Korea (and Israel) did. Trump would not dare order an attack on North Korea's nuclear facilities.

You're clueless about a lot of things. The only reason successive American Presidents didn't take out North Korea's nuclear program (and it was discussed in the 90s under Clinton) is because North Korea holds Seoul hostage with tens of thousands of artillery pieces pointed at Seoul. Destroying NK's nuclear program would result in South Korean's paying a very heavy price.

Iran can't impose any such price. They can try, with missile attacks on the Gulf states. Or attacks on shipping in the Gulf and Strait of Hormuz. But that will not be easy. And they are well aware of what happened to their navy the last time they pissed off the US.

They can try and reconstitute. They'll get bombed again. Hell, if they try to rebuild these facilities, they'll get hit again.

Good to see though that we've moved on from all the dooming to how the world would end. Turns out getting whacked really hard has brought them to the negotiating table. Given the choice they'd rather live to abuse women in their country than kill Jews in Israel. Must be disappointing for some here. But it was always obvious what they'd choose if pushed.

 

[zang]

No offense taken, but I consulted multiple sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war - 57,800 as at June 18 - source Gaza Health Ministry.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker - 61, 709 - source Al Jazeera

And several more.

It should be noted that war casualties aren't all that's going on here. Casualty numbers only count confirmed bodies and don't include indirect deaths (lack of access to healthcare, starvation, dehydration, etc.).

In the Wiki alone, it mentions:

"A letter sent to President Joe Biden, Vice President Kamala Harris, and others on 2 October 2024 by 99 American healthcare workers who have served in the Gaza Strip since 7 October 2023, using the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification standards and the available data on the severity of food shortage in different parts of Gaza, calculated that there had been at the very least 62,413 deaths in Gaza from starvation (most of them young children) and at least 5,000 deaths from lack of access to care for chronic diseases."

And it should also be noted, this was before the recent complete blockade of aid.

 

[kEiThZ]

It should be noted that war casualties aren't all that's going on here. Casualty numbers only count confirmed bodies and don't include indirect deaths (lack of access to healthcare, starvation, dehydration, etc.).

In the Wiki alone, it mentions:

"A letter sent to President Joe Biden, Vice President Kamala Harris, and others on 2 October 2024 by 99 American healthcare workers who have served in the Gaza Strip since 7 October 2023, using the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification standards and the available data on the severity of food shortage in different parts of Gaza, calculated that there had been at the very least 62,413 deaths in Gaza from starvation (most of them young children) and at least 5,000 deaths from lack of access to care for chronic diseases."

And it should also be noted, this was before the recent complete blockade of aid.

Zero doubt that Israel's prosecution of the war has had human rights abuses. That said, I think most people who have never served would actually be surprised by what is allowed under the Laws of War, especially in mixed insurgency environments and in places where the insurgents refuse to follow the same rules. There's a reason they are called conventions. They are based very much on reciprocity.

In any event, the tragedy aside, I think where people take exception is the accusation of genocide. That has a much higher burden of proof. Especially in the context of a messy insurgency being fought in a place as dense as Manhattan.

 

[kEiThZ]

It was reported by Israeli media.

You should be able to link to it. And vouch for the credibility of the source. Not just throw out some random line about "reported by Israeli media". I'm sure their press is as diverse as ours and also has a wide variety of quality in reporting. So please feel free to provide links and verified sources beyond "some Israeli dude said so".

I'm not skirting around 9-11. I don't support it.

Cool. So it's acceptable to kill civilians in Israel why?

Be specific.