[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I wouldn't expect to hear a YRT announcement about Toronto losing funding for its own projects but I can certainly envision an announcement about how the GTA needs more transit funding, and that's the problem here.

I don't blame Miller for sticking up for Toronto - but I do blame him for making it sound like this is ALL about Toronto when it's symptomatic of a larger issue. This isn't TORONTO's money that got cut (or rather held back) but rather METROLINX'S money. I agree with his premise, but he is casting his net in a very narrow and self-serving manner.

Keith is correct that there's no such lobbying going on right now on Viva buses. Whatever phasing plan comes out of all this is being hashed out in backrooms by Metrolinx and the politicians and, call me naive, but I don't think letters to your MPP are going to make a difference here. Again, I think Keith nails it - Toronto sells everyone short if they think securing one-time funding for their pet projects solves this problem at all. The problem is how transit is funded in Canada, Ontario and the GTA - not that the Don Mills LRT could open two years later.

It's shameful the money is getting withdrawn and it's even more shameful the feds haven't stepped up; the reality is we'll soon all be paying road tolls, there will be fare zones and an entirely new model for funding regional transit to which people will adapt. The TTC has shown it will be dragged last, kicking and screaming into this new age.

In the meantime, it's sad (if not new) that funding could be determined by soapboxing, hijacking a PA and otherwise playing political games. Get the message out there, but do it right.

 

[kEiThZ]

Keithz:

Squeaky wheel gets the grease - if anything, Toronto has been far too complacent about getting its' share. Altruism isn't going to get you anywhere in politics. Funny, if it was Hazel doing the complaining (and she has been doing it for years), everyone would be calling it "strong leadership". Keep in mind - Miller is probably burning his bridges for some plump future Liberal patronage positions by doing this.

That said, I am NOT a fan of PA announcements that are not essential in general.

AoD

Fair enough. But there's got to be better ways to get your message out then politicizing transit announcements. NO where have I said he should not fight for the city. But there's a special risk in using transit announcements on a system paid for by other levels to government, to specifically denounce those same entities for being less generous.

And this is all still as far as we know for a deferrment. Metrolinx still hasn't come out and said the lines are permanently canned.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

Well, if it gets the job done, then do it. It is the mayor's risk to take, and quite frankly, I can't think of anyone else who is more suited to taking it. Now, I don't believe Metrolinx or anyone in the provincial government is so green in politics that they are going to say they're going to can something a month after arguing it is just a "deferment". Keeping up the heat politically will help to reduce the risk of that outcome.

(and no, I don't really care whether it is TC in the current form or something else - having the public's attention on the transit agenda is what matters).

AoD

 

[nfitz]

This is exactly the hysteria I am talking about. I don't completely buy into TC so that automatically makes me some kind of anti-transit, anti-Toronto Harrisite?

No ... posting things that are blatantly untrue like "Toronto always get's special treatment" makes you some kind of anti-transit, anti-Toronto Harrisite.

Disagreeing with funding priorities is one thing. Making up lies about Toronto getting special treatment isn't necessary, and only serves to remove any credibility that you may thought you had.

 

[Justin10000]

Keithz:

Well, if it gets the job done, then do it. It is the mayor's risk to take, and quite frankly, I can't think of anyone else who is more suited to taking it. Now, I don't believe Metrolinx or anyone in the provincial government is so green in politics that they are going to say they're going to can something a month after arguing it is just a "deferment". Keeping up the heat politically will help to reduce the risk of that outcome.

(and no, I don't really care whether it is TC in the current form or something else - having the public's attention on the transit agenda is what matters).

AoD

*DING*

He gets it.

 

[Fresh Start]

I cannot believe people can find issues with a message telling imploring Torontonians to fight for a project that will benefit the city.

Attention comrades!! The Peoples Republic of Toronto orders you to listen to the following cultural announcement. Failure to listen will result in your immediate arrest. Please move in an orderly fashion to the exit at Karl Marx Platz station to show your travel papers and sign an oath that you have heard Chairman Miller's announcement. That is all.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The other day I saw a parking enforcement officer walking down the street looking in cars to check to see if they had parking permits on the dash. And I was all WHAT IS THIS, SOVIET RUSSIA? WHAT NEXT? THE HITLER BRIGADE WALTZING DOWN YONGE STREET ASKING FOR MY PAPERS?

 

[Fresh Start]

This is exactly the hysteria I am talking about. I don't completely buy into TC so that automatically makes me some kind of anti-transit, anti-Toronto Harrisite?

You completely missed TJ's point. And mine as well. There's a huge risk in making this all about Toronto. Especially when other municipalities are taking much bigger hits. Just look at Ottawa. They aren't getting their LRT fully paid for like the Transit City projects in Toronto. They have to pitch in a third of the cost. And the province has been demanding that they pitch in 100% over and above what the province thinks they should spend. So really it's far more than 1/3rd. From the perspective of an Ottawa residents, does it look like TO is getting special treatment?

Yet, after all this is provincial government has done for transit (particularly in the GTHA), Miller wants riders to turn on them? Ridiculous. It all reminds me of the teachers who rallied against Bob Rae to help elect Mike Harris. Be careful what you wish for....

Exactly Keithz. You can be pro-transit and anti-Transit City at the same time. Metrolinx wanted a subway under Eglinton and they wanted the DRL to be placed on a 10-15 year timeframe, while the city didnt even have it on its radar. Miller should have used the PA to urge TTC riders to write to McGuinty about operational funding of the TTC, and not about capital costs of the Transit City boondoggle. Canada is the only country in the industrialized world without a national transit strategy and the TTC is the only major system in the world that doesn't get federal or state support for their operating funding. It's a travesty.

Mississauga, Brampton, Hamilton, London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Newmarket, Ottawa, southern York Region, etc. are all being screwed over far worse than us by the sheer scale of their losses; yet nepotistic Toronto can only think of itself. Miller's neverending lament about "funding from the province" is reminiscent of a ne’er-do-well nephew waiting for the inheritence from his dying uncle. Why should the Province drop one dime in the City of Toronto when all we do is spend? We are now receiving money from the Land tranfer Real Estate tax, money from the automobile permits and now the tax increase. So Mr Miller, stop counting on others to make up for your fiscal irresponsibility and start doing your job rather than passing the buck onto us poor, disillusioned transit users to fight your battles for you.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Fresh Start:

Mississauga, Brampton, Hamilton, London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Newmarket, Ottawa, southern York Region, etc. are all being screwed over far worse than us by the sheer scale of their losses; yet nepotistic Toronto can only think of itself. Miller's neverending lament about "funding from the province" is reminiscent of a ne’er-do-well nephew waiting for the inheritence from his dying uncle. Why should the Province drop one dime in the City of Toronto when all we do is spend? We are now receiving money from the Land tranfer Real Estate tax, money from the automobile permits and now the tax increase. So Mr Miller, stop counting on others to make up for your fiscal irresponsibility and start doing your job rather than passing the buck onto us poor, disillusioned transit users to fight your battles for you.

Unlike City of Toronto, one can argue most of the public transit users in those places (with the except of Ottawa, obviously) are dependent on GO, which came out of this one relatively unscathed. And beyond that - what percentage of the population uses transit in all of those locales? Screwed over, you say? I dare say most living in the forementioned areas couldn't give a damn if there is zilch transit funding for their regions (just don't mess with their vehicle registration fee).

I can't wait to see what other "fiscally responsible" mayors offers in terms of funding mass transit. Last time I checked, places like Mississauga couldn't even fund a BRT on their own. BTW, since we're on the topic of passing the buck, remind me why a number of provincially mandated programs (e.g. social housing, welfare, etc) requires funding from property taxes without the commensurate ability for the city to define eligibility?

AoD

 

[kettal]

Our province is in a huge deficit. Ditto for the federal government. Everybody is suffering here. I fail to see why it's not fair to have some transit expenditure deferred.

If there was any transit investment happening in the surplus days, you might have had a point.

 

[Fresh Start]

Fresh Start:

Unlike City of Toronto, one can argue most of the public transit users in those places (with the except of Ottawa, obviously) are dependent on GO, which came out of this one relatively unscathed. And beyond that - what percentage of the population uses transit in all of those locales? Screwed over, you say? I dare say most living in the forementioned areas couldn't give a damn if there is zilch transit funding for their regions (just don't mess with their vehicle registration fee).

I will defer to my 905/519 associates about whether rapid transit matters to them, but to me I feel that if more public transit investment were put into place at least one-third of their city populations could be convinced to leave the car at home and commute. The fact that City of Mississauga cannot afford even one crosstown busway without gov't assistance actually proves my point that the scale of loss on the smaller municipalities affected by Mr McGuinty's decision will be harder felt in contrast to Toronto which has always had an extensive rapid transit network (relatively speaking) and is now in the process of filling in the remaining gaps. With so many other demands on the government - funding for rail lines between the Soo and Sudbury, Peterborough and Toronto, GO extensions to Niagara, K-W LRT, etc., etc. - everything cannot be accommodated all at once. The LRT in Hamilton is practically dead. These cities, sans Ottawa, were just in the process of kick-starting their higher-order capacity lines from scratch; so who can blame residents for being car-dependent in locales where the fastest bus frequency is once every 15 or 20 minutes, where if you get to the bus stop even 10 seconds late you're screwed?

Had Toronto put forth a modest major transit project like an Eglinton West subway to the airport that would've been given special priority and expedited to be completed in time for the 2015 Pan Am Games; then by all means it would've looked better on us, worse on McGuinty for having our projects delayed. But no, that was not the proposal voters were presented with to decide on. So when Toronto (pop. 2.5 million) is slated to be receiving the vast bulk of funds designated for the entire province (pop. 13 million), then it does begin to look like Miller's rally cry to protest is just a self-interested move from the rest of the province's perspective including the 905.

I can't wait to see what other "fiscally responsible" mayors offers in terms of funding mass transit. Last time I checked, places like Mississauga couldn't even fund a BRT on their own. BTW, since we're on the topic of passing the buck, remind me why a number of provincially mandated programs (e.g. social housing, welfare, etc) requires funding from property taxes without the commensurate ability for the city to define eligibility?
AoD

Fiscal responsibility is easy to achieve if politicians would just learn how to curb their spending habits (PAYGO). Toronto’s incumbent councillors only legacy will be that of borrowing 436 million dollars for grants of 240 million dollars from the federal and provincial governments and the sale of a $600 million dollars note to pay down the city’s debt. This is what the outgoing Mayor and his left-leaning incumbent councillors refer to as “good balance" between the tax increases and investing in services. In reality, all he has achieved is to extend interest and debt payments for a longer period of time and pass these interest and principle repayment costs onto our next generation of young people and their future families by burdening them with this debt.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

FreshStart makes some interesting points. I guess you can debate whether the 905/519 are getting more or less screwed than Toronto but there's been study after study showing that, broadly speaking, that region is severely underfunded for social services and infrastructure in general. And, as FreshStart points out, Toronto was given extra taxing powers; certainly not enough to fund subways, but enough to make up money for lots of little things.
People in Vaughan pay a lot more than people in Toronto do on property taxes because Torontonians sometimes seem to think they have a right to low taxes and everything else under the sun, but you get what you pay for.
That is NOT to excuse the lack of upper-level funding for operations and capital. Not at all.

I don't know enough about the outer burbs but I'd suggest that building a proper transit network in places like southern York Region has a legitmate potential to radically change how people get around. The Yonge subway extension - a dream, then a reality, now a dream again - is a perfect example but Viva can do something as well. You simply can't ask places like Markham and Vaughan to radically grow their populations and then hand them pennies to build the infrastructure, and that's what's happening here. That's the real problem and any fallout will fall as hard on the 416 as the 905.

The $4B wasn't for the whole province - just for the GTAH - but it's still a fair point. As I said above, 1/4 of the $4b that's delayed was for York Region and Davis Drive getting held back will be at least as problematic - and probabably moreso - than Don Mills or Finch; at least in the short term. I said it in my first post on this thread but my problem with Miller's announcment is not that he's wrong, but that he is not seeing the big picture and IMHO demonstrating a long-term problem with TTC. That's why we have Metrolinx....if only they had the money to do what they're supposed to.

 

[kEiThZ]

No ... posting things that are blatantly untrue like "Toronto always get's special treatment" makes you some kind of anti-transit, anti-Toronto Harrisite.

Disagreeing with funding priorities is one thing. Making up lies about Toronto getting special treatment isn't necessary, and only serves to remove any credibility that you may thought you had.

The provincial government until very recently was willing to pay 100% of a single LRT line in Toronto (Eglinton) that costs as much as (or more than) all of Ottawa's 25 year Transit Development Plan. And the province is still building more km of rapid transit lines in Toronto than anywhere else (in a city that probably has the most RT lines in the country). Yet, remarkably, the Premier demands for his hometown that they limit themselves to a certain arbitrary value, pay 100% of the costs over that value and pay 1/3 of the total projects costs if the stay within the provincially mandated ceiling. Yet, their LRT project is a priority project like the DRL for Toronto. It's not like they are running expensive LRT lines out to the suburbs.

So you tell me, who's getting the special treatment?

And by the way, Ottawa's councillors and their MPs and MPPs are starting to ask the very same question. And I doubt Hamilton is far behind after their entire rapid transit network was just nullified. And several others are probably not far behind.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

This is exactly the hysteria I am talking about. I don't completely buy into TC so that automatically makes me some kind of anti-transit, anti-Toronto Harrisite?

You completely missed TJ's point. And mine as well. There's a huge risk in making this all about Toronto. Especially when other municipalities are taking much bigger hits. Just look at Ottawa. They aren't getting their LRT fully paid for like the Transit City projects in Toronto. They have to pitch in a third of the cost. And the province has been demanding that they pitch in 100% over and above what the province thinks they should spend. So really it's far more than 1/3rd. From the perspective of an Ottawa residents, does it look like TO is getting special treatment?

Yet, after all this is provincial government has done for transit (particularly in the GTHA), Miller wants riders to turn on them? Ridiculous. It all reminds me of the teachers who rallied against Bob Rae to help elect Mike Harris. Be careful what you wish for....

Hysteria? You're calling this hysteria? I'm standing up for what I believe in and that, fellow UT user, is what's called being proactive. What exactly are you doing? Are you standing up for the SOS plan? Are you fighting to get Transit funding restored? At least I can say that I plan on attending the Protest tomorrow evening at council chambers to fight for what I believe in. You on other hand, feel, doing nothing but criticize behind a screen, validates your argument.

I can't speak for Ottawa, but why can't they can't stand up for themselves as well?

Anyhow, far too often we fight for what we need, and the result is that we get NOTHING or piecemeal projects at best. Why? Because no one had any vision or any guts to fight for what's necessary (and I'm referring to funding in this statement). Line modes CAN be changed, yes, but funding CANNOT.

The province hasn't done enough for the GTHA if you ask me, and the funding reduction is the equivalent of a kick in the balls. It's time to play Transit catchup, and it has to start somewhere, sooner or later.

 

[rbt]

The provincial government until very recently was willing to pay 100% of a single LRT line in Toronto (Eglinton) that costs as much as (or more than) all of Ottawa's 25 year Transit Development Plan. And the province is still building more km of rapid transit lines in Toronto than anywhere else (in a city that probably has the most RT lines in the country). Yet, remarkably, the Premier demands for his hometown that they limit themselves to a certain arbitrary value, pay 100% of the costs over that value and pay 1/3 of the total projects costs if the stay within the provincially mandated ceiling. Yet, their LRT project is a priority project like the DRL for Toronto. It's not like they are running expensive LRT lines out to the suburbs.

So you tell me, who's getting the special treatment?

Ottawa actually, assuming we remove politics from the situation and run by the numbers only.

Financially, growth in Toronto is likely to pay back damn near any transportation related investment in a pretty short time period through additional income and sales tax collected. Ottawa is less likely to do so as growth is directly related to government size which isn't really impacted by the transportation network and will occur, or not, regardless of that investment.

Ottawa should get a good tunnelled transit system but not because it will encourage economic growth; but for security reasons. I would expect the feds to fund a majority of it and for the military to be a stake-holder in the design.