[ssiguy2]

Just got back from my Toronto/London trip yesterday and had a wonderful time. Spent the first week in Toronto and then headed to London. I was going to go by VIA but my sister was picking me up and I had no confidence in VIA being on-time. This wasn't helped by the fact that it was going to cost me nearly twice as much as the bus so Megabus it was.

The trip was comfortable and pleasant and done in 2 hours just as stated. Even though traffic on the Gardiner was heavy we still did OK and managed to fly by a GO commuter train truly exemplifying how slow they can be. The traffic on the 401 from the 427 to Milton was very heavy but the HOV lanes meant we passed nearly everybody and ditto thru K/W/C.

Until VIA gets a frequent, affordable, fast, and reliable service, I can't imagine why one would take it over the bus especially with London being served by several different bus companies.

 

[Garuda]

I did another one of my surveys of bus service in the Ottawa-Toronto corridor. Several changes since the last one:
- Red Arrow is now operating under the Orléans Express brand, which means ordinary 56-passenger coach buses rather than luxury buses, and no more catering service. However, they've increased service to 4/day, with two new trips from Pearson Airport to Ottawa via Pioneer Village Station and STC
- Flixbus has dramatically increased service frequency, now running 16 buses per day, of which 5 travel via Peterborough.
- OnEx is new to the corridor since my last summary. I've ridden it and it seems pretty decent. My main complaint is that it makes a detour to Kanata en route, which is not on the way between Kingston and Ottawa Tremblay Station. On my trip only 2 people disembarked there, vs 40+ in Ottawa.
- OurBus seems to have left the corridor, so the total number of carriers remain steady at 5.

View attachment 674901
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OPIGuqwWnrwaByM6H3ZpA-Uu2TzUVxIj0PAk3rKZvhA/edit?usp=sharing

Via is only operating 55% of the total seats in the corridor, down from 71% in 2022. This is mostly due to the increase in Flixbus service.

View attachment 674899View attachment 674900

Thank you for the hard work putting this together. Looking through your document I was surprised that WestJet only flies once per day between Toronto and Ottawa. You can really see how much seat allocation that VIA Rail has. Really puts into perspective their capacity on trains.

I know this is a bus thread but seeing charts like this and how frequently Flixbus runs (16x a day!) it makes me think about the potential for a budget Open-access operator train. It'll never happen given CN's ownership. But dedicated passenger railway (I'm not talking HSR) that allows for multiple operators serving budget travellers like university students and the cost minded could be viable. They don't care for spend but rather a safe, comfortable intercity service.

 

[Mihairokov]

Thank you for the hard work putting this together. Looking through your document I was surprised that WestJet only flies once per day between Toronto and Ottawa. You can really see how much seat allocation that VIA Rail has. Really puts into perspective their capacity on trains.

I know this is a bus thread but seeing charts like this and how frequently Flixbus runs (16x a day!) it makes me think about the potential for a budget Open-access operator train. It'll never happen given CN's ownership. But dedicated passenger railway (I'm not talking HSR) that allows for multiple operators serving budget travellers like university students and the cost minded could be viable. They don't care for spend but rather a safe, comfortable intercity service.

What Flixbus, and others, are really able to tap in to is the university student market. I'll be interested to see how much their operations are affected by declines in international students, but it's vital that these buses also connect places like Kingston (Queen's), Peterborough (Trent), with the universities in Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal. Back in my day, the only reason I took Orleans Express as much as I did was to see my friends on different campuses. I'm sure that hasn't changed.

As much as I may agree that we could potentially harbour future low-cost train operators, the reality is that our current sole train operator is struggling to meet needs and demands. Alto might take some pressure off of that but there's going to be growing demand for Corridor service as this area grows and expands. I'd love to see GO expand even further, but I understand that isn't the budget train operator you're referring to.

 

[Bordercollie]

What Flixbus, and others, are really able to tap in to is the university student market. I'll be interested to see how much their operations are affected by declines in international students, but it's vital that these buses also connect places like Kingston (Queen's), Peterborough (Trent), with the universities in Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal. Back in my day, the only reason I took Orleans Express as much as I did was to see my friends on different campuses. I'm sure that hasn't changed.

As much as I may agree that we could potentially harbour future low-cost train operators, the reality is that our current sole train operator is struggling to meet needs and demands. Alto might take some pressure off of that but there's going to be growing demand for Corridor service as this area grows and expands. I'd love to see GO expand even further, but I understand that isn't the budget train operator you're referring to.

HSR is great but you need to couple it with a milk run that services smaller communities in-between.

 

[lenaitch]

It'll never happen given CN's ownership. But dedicated passenger railway (I'm not talking HSR) that allows for multiple operators serving budget travellers like university students and the cost minded could be viable.

You sentence contradicts itself. Without nationalizing at least one of our Class 1 companies it cannot work. CN barely tolerates one tenant company, and it's a government entity.

 

[reaperexpress]

You sentence contradicts itself. Without nationalizing at least one of our Class 1 companies it cannot work. CN barely tolerates one tenant company, and it's a government entity.

It's not a contradiction. The paragraph basically says:
We currently have CN so it doesn't work.
If we did build a dedicated government owned railway it could work.

 

[Garuda]

It's not a contradiction. The paragraph basically says:
We currently have CN so it doesn't work.
If we did build a dedicated government owned railway it could work.

Exactly. What I envision is parallel but segregated passenger and freight lines. The same way GO and CN run parallel but separate lines between Pickering and Oshawa.

What Flixbus, and others, are really able to tap in to is the university student market. I'll be interested to see how much their operations are affected by declines in international students, but it's vital that these buses also connect places like Kingston (Queen's), Peterborough (Trent), with the universities in Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal. Back in my day, the only reason I took Orleans Express as much as I did was to see my friends on different campuses. I'm sure that hasn't changed.

As much as I may agree that we could potentially harbour future low-cost train operators, the reality is that our current sole train operator is struggling to meet needs and demands. Alto might take some pressure off of that but there's going to be growing demand for Corridor service as this area grows and expands. I'd love to see GO expand even further, but I understand that isn't the budget train operator you're referring to.

Completely agree with the university student market. It's smart and you can clearly how they specifically target that market. They don't have cars, are tech savvy (fast web booking process) and want point-to-point travel.

It's also interesting to note the overnight bus service Flixbus has that runs to the airport. Makes me wonder about luxury overnight bus services like Napaway in the US that offer beds

 

[lenaitch]

Exactly. What I envision is parallel but segregated passenger and freight lines. The same way GO and CN run parallel but separate lines between Pickering and Oshawa.

But that's not what you floated.

I know this is a bus thread but seeing charts like this and how frequently Flixbus runs (16x a day!) it makes me think about the potential for a budget Open-access operator train. It'll never happen given CN's ownership. But dedicated passenger railway (I'm not talking HSR) that allows for multiple operators serving budget travellers like university students and the cost minded could be viable. They don't care for spend but rather a safe, comfortable intercity service.

Even if it were dedicated passenger rail, what you are proposing is essentially a rail-based version of Ontario's de-regulated inter-city bus system; come up with a few buck - buy a train - run it on somebody's track. Your Euro example doesn't say who owns the tracks that these private operators run on. I don't think it is necessarily a CN-specific problem; it's an issue of safety, liability and regulation as it exists in NA.

 

[dowlingm]

In theory, ONR could run purely interregional trains (Ottawa-Windsor) since they will have a presence in Toronto/Union already with Northlander. Depending on how Alto turns out in practice, we may (but likely won’t) need them to.

 

[Garuda]

In theory, ONR could run purely interregional trains (Ottawa-Windsor) since they will have a presence in Toronto/Union already with Northlander. Depending on how Alto turns out in practice, we may (but likely won’t) need them to.

I hope the Northlander is very successful and makes ONR and the province consider other routes. Sudbury- North Bay - Toronto on alternating days? Sudbury has the population and lots of traffic already heading southbound.

 

[Bordercollie]

I hope the Northlander is very successful and makes ONR and the province consider other routes. Sudbury- North Bay - Toronto on alternating days? Sudbury has the population and lots of traffic already heading southbound.

Sudbury is already serviced by the Canadian 3x per week.

 

[Urban Sky]

I hope the Northlander is very successful and makes ONR and the province consider other routes. Sudbury- North Bay - Toronto on alternating days? Sudbury has the population and lots of traffic already heading southbound.

The question (outside the Q-W corridor, at least) is always: what could a train achieve that a bus could not achieve at a fraction of the required operating subsidy (let alone: upfront investment)?