[micheal_can]

Can this project be filed under the same thing as the Pickering Airport project? A project that on paper,without much look into it sounds like a reasonable answer to a real problem. A project that once you dive into the details and costs become less and less reasonable and more and more pipe dream. A project that highlights that other, more reasonable projects would be better to spend that money on.

 

[ssiguy2]

I think Torontonians should relax about this tunnel idea because it is NEVER going to happen.

It will take at least $100 billion and chances are that figure will skyrocket over the years, cause horrifying levels of disruption on the current 401 and all interchanges and feeder routes, and take decades to build. I think getting it built by 2045 would be a stretch. It will blow a massive hole in the provinces books at a time when the Ontario debt level is already high and cause a further downgrade on the province's credit rating. Added to this is that people will be furious that the schools, hospitals, bridges, transit etc are creaking in order to pay for a fantasy project. He may be setting up a 2 year review on the project but that is simply a political move.

If all of this wasn't enough, he will want Ottawa to pony up probably half the cost and Carney {or any future gov't} would balk at such an idea. Not only due to the money and how useless the project is but also because the project is not of "national significance" and couldn't be finished near as quickly as Carney wants all the projects to be. Then, of course, nearly everyone of all political stripes know this is a non-sensical project and the proposal will die as soon as Ford is out of gov't whether the next gov't is Tory or not.

This project will NEVER, EVER going to happen.

 

[crs1026]

This project will NEVER, EVER going to happen.

Agree it will never happen - but the cost in ministerial and bureaucratic distraction while it is studied and debated will harm sense of urgency for more worthy and pressing projects that could make a difference.
It’s not just a silly idea we can laugh about until it collapses - it’s a toxic and reckless detour that needs to be opposed to a quick death.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Agree it will never happen - but the cost in ministerial and bureaucratic distraction while it is studied and debated will harm sense of urgency for more worthy and pressing projects that could make a difference.

Will it though? The ministry has been developing various plans for many, many years. Usually for so long, that they have to redesign them again and again to meet changing onditions and standards. The Highway 7 expressway between and Kitchener and Guelph for example, which after over 60 years of planning, resulted in the only piece they actually built in the 1960s, not being used!

It keeps engineers employed.

 

[micheal_can]

Will it though? The ministry has been developing various plans for many, many years. Usually for so long, that they have to redesign them again and again to meet changing onditions and standards. The Highway 7 expressway between and Kitchener and Guelph for example, which after over 60 years of planning, resulted in the only piece they actually built in the 1960s, not being used!

It keeps engineers employed.

You know when the uneducated speak of government waste and the rest of us poo poo them because we all know better? This may be what they speak of. There is a difference between a viable future plan and a pie in the sky future plan.

 

[crs1026]

Will it though? The ministry has been developing various plans for many, many years. Usually for so long, that they have to redesign them again and again to meet changing onditions and standards. The Highway 7 expressway between and Kitchener and Guelph for example, which after over 60 years of planning, resulted in the only piece they actually built in the 1960s, not being used!

It keeps engineers employed.

True, but those go on all the time and nobody pays much attention, the objective is merely to have options ready in the drawer.
The difference is, this project may encourage some to downplay or halt other proposals on the basis of “don’t spend time on those, we have a tunnel coming”. Or, “this tunnel is so massive we need all hands on deck”.
Except, the tunnel never appears. We could lose a lot of time and traction if those parallel studies and plans are moved to back burners.
- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The difference is, this project may encourage some to downplay or halt other proposals on the basis of “don’t spend time on those, we have a tunnel coming”. Or, “this tunnel is so massive we need all hands on deck”.
Except, the tunnel never appears. We could lose a lot of time and traction if those parallel studies and plans are moved to back burners.

I'm not sure what urgent projects would be delayed, with the usual 30+ year planning process. There's more than enough projects already on the books to keep them busy for the next decade or two.

Besides, this is hardly a new project. They've already been at it for years - and getting into this new comparative study (which will mostly be done by external contractors - not ministry staff) will provide direction and focus on how best to increase capacity on the 401, and at what cost.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not sure what urgent projects would be delayed, with the usual 30+ year planning process. There's more than enough projects already on the books to keep them busy for the next decade or two.

Well, extension of the Finch LRT, Sheppard subway, and 407 corridor transit all come to mind. As does regional rail competing with 401 usage between Kitchener and Cobourg. And Milton GO 2WAD.
The business case for the tunnel may be vastly different once all of those are complete, but fixating on the tunnel will likely push these off the table.

Besides, this is hardly a new project. They've already been at it for years - and getting into this new comparative study (which will mostly be done by external contractors - not ministry staff) will provide direction and focus on how best to increase capacity on the 401, and at what cost.

I have to assume that the tunnel is a new idea and not one that MOT already had in the drawer.
We only legalised cannabis a few years back. If MOT was studying a 401 tunnel prior to that date…well… those studies may have been conducted under dubious legal circumstances!

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Well, extension of the Finch LRT, Sheppard subway, and 407 corridor transit all come to mind. As does regional rail competing with 401 usage between Kitchener and Cobourg. And Milton GO 2WAD.

Not only are those not the same staff, they aren't even the same agency.

I have to assume that the tunnel is a new idea and not one that MOT already had in the drawer.

Adding capacity between 427 and 404 is certainly not a new idea, and has appeared in MTO planning documents previously. I can't imagine how you'd do the preliminary studies of that and not do an assessment of various options, lane options, and alternative concepts that would increase current peak-hour capacity.

 

[micheal_can]

Not only are those not the same staff, they aren't even the same agency.

We could add Twinning of 69 and 17 that the funds could be better directed towards.

 

[crs1026]

Not only are those not the same staff, they aren't even the same agency.

Not the same agency? We are talking about Metrolinx and MOT, aren't we? Can any of those projects happen without provincial planning, funding, and (of late) procurement?

If those agencies are told, the 401 tunnel is the priority..... other things will not get advanced.

Adding capacity between 427 and 404 is certainly not a new idea, and has appeared in MTO planning documents previously. I can't imagine how you'd do the preliminary studies of that and not do an assessment of various options, lane options, and alternative concepts that would increase current peak-hour capacity.

And where has tunnelling ever surfaced as something that MOT was studying?

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

Will it though? The ministry has been developing various plans for many, many years. Usually for so long, that they have to redesign them again and again to meet changing onditions and standards. The Highway 7 expressway between and Kitchener and Guelph for example, which after over 60 years of planning, resulted in the only piece they actually built in the 1960s, not being used!

It keeps engineers employed.

I mean if we’re going to use projects as a sort of charity to keep engineers employed could we at least employee them to work on things that could actually be built.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Will it though? The ministry has been developing various plans for many, many years. Usually for so long, that they have to redesign them again and again to meet changing onditions and standards. The Highway 7 expressway between and Kitchener and Guelph for example, which after over 60 years of planning, resulted in the only piece they actually built in the 1960s, not being used!

It keeps engineers employed.

MTO mostly does these studies not beause they intend to build them immediately - but because they cost a relatively small amount and they identify land and infrasructure requirements.

One of the better examples is the "missing" ramps from Highway 8 to the 401. MTO did a study on them about 10 years ago to do preliminary design. Great - everyone thought MTO wanted to build them soonish.

But that wasn't why MTO did the study. There was a subdivision proposed close to the interchange, and MTO was planning to replace the 401's Grand River bridge. So MTO did the study to protect the land they needed for the interchange from the subdivision, and to confirm how wide the replacement bridges on the 401 needed to be to accommodate it. MTO may not build it for another 30 years, but they have at a minimum protected for it from adjacent development and won't have to rebuild a relatively new bridge to accommodate it.

MTO has no plans to build it. The fact it isn't getting built isn't a sign of "wasted" engineering, or waffling government funding, it's just that the purpose of the study wasn't to build it - it was to figure out an approximate footprint to protect for it's eventuality, whenever that may be.

Even the 413 was this before it became Ford's political football - MTO was doing preliminary studies on the road in the 2010's to identify a corridor and protect it from encroaching development. They originally didn't plan on actually building the highway until like 2040.

 

[nfitz]

And where has tunnelling ever surfaced as something that MOT was studying?

They discussed capacity increases. There was no indication that they were going to propose adding extra surface or elevated lanes either. But you can bet bottom dollar it was part of the analysis.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Ontario wants to study building a 401 tunnel but one expert says there’s a much simpler fix than that​

From https://www.cp24.com/news/2025/05/30/ontario-wants-to-study-building-a-401-tunnel-but-one-expert-says-theres-a-much-simpler-fix-than-that/

Ontario is studying the idea of digging a massive tunnel under Highway 401 but one economist says there’s a much simpler and proven way to reduce gridlock in Toronto — charge drivers at peak road times.

“The only response to traffic congestion, by which there’s really any evidence, is congestion pricing,” said Matthew Turner, a professor of economics at Brown University and former University of Toronto professor. “The problem is not road capacity, it’s road capacity at peak times.”

Premier Doug Ford has promised to build a traffic tunnel spanning from Mississauga and Brampton in the west to Scarborough and Markham in the east, despite criticism from opposition leaders.

A feasibility study on the idea is planned and the deadline for firms to participate in the formal Requests for Proposal process officially passed on Thursday.

The government has previously said that the study won’t be completed until 2027. But experts say no matter what the study finds, the fundamental problem isn’t how many lanes exist — but rather when they are being used.

‘You add capacity, it gets filled up’:​

“My first reaction is that Toronto needs more transportation capacity,” Turner said. “This is probably a very expensive way to get it, that it’ll take so long to build that it’s not even relevant to talk about it.”

Turner has studied urban congestion for decades and says building new roads or tunnels simply doesn’t work if the goal is to reduce traffic jams.

“Los Angeles has been trying to build its way out of traffic congestion for 60 years,” he said, pointing to the Santa Monica Freeway as a prime example of a project that keeps expanding but delivers only temporary relief. “What happens in Los Angeles is typical. You add capacity. It gets filled up. More people get to move around, but you still have problems with traffic congestion.”

Ford backs tunnel while critics call it ‘imaginary’​

Ford first floated the idea of a Highway 401 tunnel in September and made it part of his successful re-election campaign back in February. Earlier this month, Ford also asked Prime Minister Mark Carney to prioritize ‘nation-building’ projects including the tunnel idea.

The feasibility study will include other options to increase the capacity of Highway 401 and review best practices from similar projects, including a four-lane tunnel in downtown Ottawa that was also the subject of feasibility study that pegged its cost at $2 billion. That project has never moved forward.

“The reason we’re having a feasibility study is it’s going to determine the length. If they’re telling me, 30 kilometres is X, 40 kilometres is Y, and 70 kilometres or 60 kilometres is another cost, let’s take a look at it,” Ford said of the Highway 401 tunnel back in September. “But we’re going to get the job done, mark my words.”

The formal Requests for Proposals asks for the feasibility study to be completed by February 28,2027 and to examine a corridor that spans from east of Highway 410 in Mississauga to east of Scarborough.

But experts say that while technically possible, the tunnel could cost billions of dollars and take decades to build.

Opposition leader Marit Stiles has been extremely vocal dismissing the idea often referring to it as “imaginary,” and a “silly thought from a government that’s run out of ideas.”

“His big priority is to get the feasibility study done on this silly tunnel under the 401, this imaginary tunnel,” she said last month.

Meanwhile, Ontario Liberal Leader Bonnie Crombie called the plan a fantasy that “could bankrupt the province.”

Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow was asked about the proposal during an interview with CP24 Breakfast on Thursday morning and seemed to suggest it is not a “priority” for the city at this time.

“That is really up to Premier Ford and the federal government. I just know that I want public transit,” she said. “In terms of priority infrastructure, the priority is still public transit, subway stations, the subway cars as well….”

Does congestion pricing work? Here are the numbers​

While Ford remains confident on his big promise, some cities have already turned to congestion pricing — and seen significant results.

Earlier this year, New York City began implementing a USD $9 congestion charge during peak hours south of Central Park. The result: a 7.5 per cent drop in traffic in the first week, or about 43,000 fewer vehicles entering the downtown core daily.

Turner says the evidence is overwhelming.

“If you are building more infrastructure with the idea that you’re going to reduce traffic congestion, then there is an enormous amount of evidence that says that you’re going to fail.”

“This infrastructure is so expensive, and it’s so disruptive to build more, and people will fill it up if it’s free.”

Toronto, he says, already has the technical expertise to make pricing work.

Why pricing the 401 is a hard sell​

Toronto has flirted with the idea before. In 2017, former Mayor John Tory proposed tolls for the Gardiner Expressway and Don Valley Parkway. But then-premier Kathleen Wynne shot it down, suggesting conditions were not right.

Ontario, however, introduced legislation in 2024 that prohibits the introduction of any new tolls on provincial highways.

Toronto is technically able to implement tolls on city-operated roads under the City of Toronto Act but the provincial government would be able to override it as it did in 2017.

“I think that the politicians want to build things, and congestion pricing is a hard sell, and so it’s been really hard to implement,” Turner said.

Today, the Ford government remains firmly opposed to tolls. In an email earlier this year, Transportation Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria’s office said the government “will never add a tax or toll to any road in Ontario,” citing their commitment to building infrastructure instead.

Matthias Sweet, a congestion expert at Toronto Metropolitan University, said the refusal to consider tolls comes at a cost.

“Unless you take a policy like that, then you’re basically saying traffic congestion is not as bad as the burden of potential solutions,” he said.

Weighing the burden of Toronto traffic​

The Toronto Region Board of Trade estimates congestion costs the GTA $11 billion annually in lost productivity. A broader analysis by the Canadian Centre for Economic Analysis puts the cost to the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area at $47 billion when social and economic losses are included.

But Turner cautions against thinking of megaprojects like the 401 tunnel as a fix.

“These things take forever, and they’re really disruptive while they’re being done,” he said, pointing to Boston’s infamous “Big Dig” project — a tunnel and highway reconstruction that took over 15 years to finish, cost of over $14.8 billion, and was plagued by costs, delays, leaks, and hundreds of millions in lawsuits.

“If you’re interested in managing the use level on these things, the only way that we know how to do that is pricing,” Turner said, adding that “nobody wants to hear that.”

With files from CP24’s Joshua Freeman and The Canadian Press...