Capacity would also be constrained by the fact that the streetcar is volunteer-operated, and you need specialized training and licensing to operate a train.
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- Thread starter Daveography
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archited
Senior Member
^^^^ check out the cable-car operation in San Francisco which runs near capacity year round and is exceptionally popular with tourists as well as locals. I have to say again that the more forms of transportation that a City has the better. I would venture to bet that the ERRS could handle more passengers (as if that is an issue) than the new Prairie Sky scheme once it is operational. Setting up operational standards for ERR seems like it would not be inordinately difficult and I bet that will happen now that the tracks and the cars will cross over Gateway Boulevard (and, fingers-crossed, soon-to-be Whyte Avenue).
_Citizen_Dane_
Active Member
I really hope that they manage to pick up one or two of E.T.S.'s old Siemens-Duewag U2's once they finally part with them. To me nothing beats that awesome '70s livery.I hope they can order at least 1 more to ensure that the capacity is there. Who knows what other expansions will happen down the line...
Anyway's, my rail-fan dreams aside, here's a recent picture from Reddit of the line extension from Whyte.
_Citizen_Dane_
Active Member
Airboy
Senior Member
Nice paved path beside it as well.
Platinum107
Senior Member
Holy crap this moved fast. It seemed like a few days ago there was nothing and now POOF, new train track!
cliffapotamus
Active Member
the new track is in!
dang, i didn't realize they were only running 2 trains on this line. The new section is a single line, no passing loop or anything.
I think this new addition is tremendous as-is, and will be a boon to the area next summer and beyond. Thinking longer term, and of the ERRS line as a more serious transit facility rather than a historical novelty, more passing loops to allow more frequency might be good. They also have a few operable trains in Fort Ed that could maybe come over? IDK enough about how these systems are operated to say more. but it would be great to see this network taken seriously as a resource, it fills an important niche in Old Strathcona.
dang, i didn't realize they were only running 2 trains on this line. The new section is a single line, no passing loop or anything.
I think this new addition is tremendous as-is, and will be a boon to the area next summer and beyond. Thinking longer term, and of the ERRS line as a more serious transit facility rather than a historical novelty, more passing loops to allow more frequency might be good. They also have a few operable trains in Fort Ed that could maybe come over? IDK enough about how these systems are operated to say more. but it would be great to see this network taken seriously as a resource, it fills an important niche in Old Strathcona.
_Citizen_Dane_
Active Member
^I just don’t see it ever happening, unfortunately. I think there’s just far too many factors limiting what role the E.R.R.S and its tracks can play. The ‘problem’ (and I use that word loosely) is that the E.R.R.S. has always been, and always will be, a volunteer organization run by railfans for the purposes of promoting transit history — the whole intent is for it to be a historical novelty as opposed to a meaningful part of the transit system. And that’s not me saying I wouldn’t love it to be a more integrated part of Edmonton’s overall transit strategy during the summer months, because I do, whether as an active means of transit or as something as simple as shared fares or transfers, but I just think the whole ideal behind it is incompatible with that goal.
In a hypothetical scenario where there are talks to integrate it, I still see too many questions and variables for it to be a viable tool. Who would run it if it could become an active part of the network? Do you have volunteers run it, despite it being a full-time commitment? Do you pay them? Do you strip them of what they built and have the City run it? Does the City use the E.R.R.S.’ cars? What if a 110+ year old car breaks down, where do you get the parts? If not using their cars, does that mean the City has to purchase new streetcars? Where are they stored? Who maintains them? Is it it’s own segregated branch of E.T.S., or do you connect it somewhere with existing L.R.T.? Then there’s the structural problems with the High Level Bridge, where it can’t support regular train service anymore, and a major bottleneck with the tunnel at Strathcona House, which as far as I can tell is only one car’s width wide.
And again, all of that majorly sucks! I wish in some ideal world, E.T.S. could just have a branch of the Valley Line West come down around 110th Street, run through Rail Town Park, down the current streetcar right-of-way across the High Level, down the tracks into Old Strathcona and then branch off east down Whyte to Bonnie Doon and the current Valley Line, and west down Whyte to the UofA’s Corbett Hall, where it would have a European-styled tram loop. But I just don't see a scenario (at least without a bottomless budget, where all these questions would be made irrelevant), anything more than what the E.R.R.S. already does can exist, especially since they only have the capacity to store three vehicles on site to begin with.
Having gotten my ramble out of the way, I do agree: why not two tracks here? I haven’t done the calculations, but the old C.P.R. the right-of-way they’re building along looks wide enough to support two. If that is the case and I'm not just crazy, it seems like somewhat of a missed opportunity, especially since I’d be willing to bet that ridership will go up given it’ll be so much more visible now.
In a hypothetical scenario where there are talks to integrate it, I still see too many questions and variables for it to be a viable tool. Who would run it if it could become an active part of the network? Do you have volunteers run it, despite it being a full-time commitment? Do you pay them? Do you strip them of what they built and have the City run it? Does the City use the E.R.R.S.’ cars? What if a 110+ year old car breaks down, where do you get the parts? If not using their cars, does that mean the City has to purchase new streetcars? Where are they stored? Who maintains them? Is it it’s own segregated branch of E.T.S., or do you connect it somewhere with existing L.R.T.? Then there’s the structural problems with the High Level Bridge, where it can’t support regular train service anymore, and a major bottleneck with the tunnel at Strathcona House, which as far as I can tell is only one car’s width wide.
And again, all of that majorly sucks! I wish in some ideal world, E.T.S. could just have a branch of the Valley Line West come down around 110th Street, run through Rail Town Park, down the current streetcar right-of-way across the High Level, down the tracks into Old Strathcona and then branch off east down Whyte to Bonnie Doon and the current Valley Line, and west down Whyte to the UofA’s Corbett Hall, where it would have a European-styled tram loop. But I just don't see a scenario (at least without a bottomless budget, where all these questions would be made irrelevant), anything more than what the E.R.R.S. already does can exist, especially since they only have the capacity to store three vehicles on site to begin with.
Having gotten my ramble out of the way, I do agree: why not two tracks here? I haven’t done the calculations, but the old C.P.R. the right-of-way they’re building along looks wide enough to support two. If that is the case and I'm not just crazy, it seems like somewhat of a missed opportunity, especially since I’d be willing to bet that ridership will go up given it’ll be so much more visible now.
archited
Senior Member
I was one of the passengers on "the last tram" ride over the high level bridge -- my grandmother took me on that ride understanding the significance of it (I was a very young lad at the time). The fact that the high level excursion has been renewed is a great pleasure to me. In those earlier days there was no discussion of making the tram system a "seasonal" ride; the ERRS, while voluntary and non-profit, typically rebuilds their own parts and so the system is viable (referencing both the Cable Car system in San Fran and the trolley system in New Orleans -- neither seem to be daunted by upgrading and maintaining what are clearly last-century conveyances). I don't believe the the ERR needs to be "integrated into the Edmonton Transit System; I do believe that ERRS could transmogrify into a profit-making entity -- a system that is perhaps subsidized partially by the City or a combination of donations (think Valley Zoo), creative fund raising (perhaps gamification), and a modest ticket price. Edmonton could promote it as the street-envy system that ties communities together -- Old Strathcona, the Provincial Government Precinct, 105th Avenue, and the Civic Centre (eventually). It could and should operate year round. And if a replacement bridge was built for vehicular traffic over the High Level Bridge -- a living bridge that also had retail and hospitality outlets there upon -- then the High Level (also an important historical resource) could be refurbished and dedicated solely to each of roof-top tram, pedestrian and bicycle leisure throughways and an ornamental park (along the lines of New York's High-Line -- in fact the whole of the ERRS tramway end-to-end could become one glorious linear pedestrian park and bicycle path). The propulsion system for the trams could be converted to a centre-of-track LSM system that would be an undercarriage "invisible" propulsion system that would be easy to maintain and would seldom -- if ever -- break down; it could then be monitored remotely with all manner of sensors, freeing up the motor-man/woman to become an on-board ambassador for the City (again similar to the Cable Car entity that promotes points of interest, historic features and public engagement). What the system would lack in "speed" would be made up in community bonding.
DutchBoy
Active Member
The new asphalt in the first photo looks really out of place on Gateway! I hope that'll smooth out over time.
Does anyone know if they're planning to also build a new platform or station at the Whyte Ave end?
cliffapotamus
Active Member
@_Citizen_Dane_ you raise a lot of valid points, I shouldn't have made that comment offhand. I know it's a volunteer organization, and their main goal is to preserve these machines. I just hope that they will be able to continue service on the line, and maybe one day have enough of a reliable fleet (i mean, even the best 110 year old street car is still 110 years old) to offer reliable service in the summer months to supplement ETS and LRT. ie the streetcar runs every 10 minutes during Fringe weekends, so people going to Fringe can plan on taking the streetcar to and from the festival, without any uncertainty. they already try to do this; and running all the way to Whyte proper as this extension does improves this role. IDK, personally i dream small about this line, I'm just glad we have it, and wonder what can be done to make this line as well-used and appreciated. I agree, tbh it would just be way less cool if ETS was operating this service, (although sharing smart fare would be nice, just putting ERRS' very reasonable $2 fare on the fare card would be super convenient , but I'm dreamin' big here) and what makes it special is that the service is run by passionate people who care about the trains! I mean, if they manage to get a third streetcar running from 100 ave to Whyte, with posters/signage from LRT to the streetcars during Fringe so people use it, I think this is success!
also, i wanna see a U2 on this route. it would be crazy and massive and wild and I would ride it back and forth like a crazy person (I love the U2s feel free to @ me). so i totally see you point, and I guess when i say I hope to see growth i think small elements to improve things would go a long way to making the ERRS a highlight of the city, as it should be.
lol the asphalt is intentional! it's a combined rail crossing/speed bump!
also, i wanna see a U2 on this route. it would be crazy and massive and wild and I would ride it back and forth like a crazy person (I love the U2s feel free to @ me). so i totally see you point, and I guess when i say I hope to see growth i think small elements to improve things would go a long way to making the ERRS a highlight of the city, as it should be.
lol the asphalt is intentional! it's a combined rail crossing/speed bump!
DutchBoy
Active Member
The vehicle part is fine, but it's the pedestrian bit that caught my eye. I also don't like that it seems to visually blends the car part into the sidewalk
@cliffapotamus I love the U2s as well, and I'm happy they were all refurbished so have at least a couple more decades of service in them.
I miss the UHV 601.
I miss the UHV 601.
_Citizen_Dane_
Active Member
No, don’t even say that! I’m sorry for using your comment as a semi-unrelated springboard for my own thoughts lol. Far too often I think people are prone to thinking too big when it comes to the potential of the line (which isn’t at all bad in its own right), and I kind of just wanted to get my doubts about ideas like that out there. Like you say, I think this is a case where clever ‘small-think’ is really needed, like the aforementioned shared fare. Hell, even doubling the tracks in certain spots like you mentioned would do wonders for fringe/festival service in the summers.
Wait, I'm not alone on this? I absolutely adore the things too — more so than the newer 160s. Nothing beats their late-modern boxiness, and my inner child loves the light up “Push to Open” buttons in them. I mentioned in a comment above, but when E.T.S. finally dumps the old U2’s I hope they offer car 1001 (at the very least) to the E.R.R.S. Allow them to restore it with that "awesome ‘70s livery" and the grody brown carpet interiors.