[chrisw]

I want to believe, it'd really help make weekend trips to Niagara Falls more consistent and flexible.

Yeah it doesn't really make sense since the provincial press release mentioned 15 trips total to Confederation, while 8 round trips to Niagara would give us 16 total trips to Confederation just with the Niagara service.

Well, they just mention that the existing Niagara Falls trips will stop at Confederation. Maybe the added trips to Niagara Falls won't all stop at Confederation.

 

[WB62]

From what I’ve been able to gather, this will be the service beginning, stopping, or terminating at Confederation GO from October 27th:

Monday-Friday:

Confederation 05:50-Union Station 07:17

Confederation 06:51-Union Station 08:18

Confederation 07:34-Union Station 09:04 - NF

Confederation 11:08-Union Station 12:45

Confederation 14:04-Union Station 15:27 - NF

Confederation 19:07-Union Station 20:45

Confederation 21:01-Union Station 22:26 - NF


Union Station 09:10-Confederation 10:35 - NF

Union Station 11:47-Confederation 13:24

Union Station 16:00-Confederation 17:26

Union Station 17:00-Confederation 18:25 - NF

Union Station 18:47-Confederation 20:24

Union Station 22:07-Confederation 23:32 - NF


Saturday-Sunday:

Confederation 07:07-Union Station 08:45

Confederation 08:07-Union Station 09:45

Confederation 09:07-Union Station 10:45

Confederation 12:55-Union Station 14:25 - NF

Confederation 16:57-Union Station 18:24 - NF

Confederation 19:07-Union Station 20:45

Confederation 20:55-Union Station 22:23 - NF

Confederation 23:01-Union Station 00:29 - NF


Union Station 09:04-Confederation 10:29 - NF

Union Station 11:09-Confederation 12:34 - NF

Union Station 14:47-Confederation 16:23

Union Station 17:07-Confederation 18:32 - NF

Union Station 18:47-Confederation 20:24

Union Station 19:22-Confederation 20:47 - NF

Union Station 20:47-Confederation 22:24

All trips beginning or ending at Confederation come or go to Lewis Road Yard, no trips turn around at Confederation.

NF are the Niagara Falls trips, those trip departure times are not officially defined, I based those off the existing trip times to West Harbour, plus or minus the travel time to Confederation (15 minutes).

 

[stevensontransit]

Nice but all west harbour bound trains could be extended to serve that station.

 

[WB62]

Nice but all west harbour bound trains could be extended to serve that station.

Someone here surely knows better than me, but I believe the isn’t any signalling to allow trains to turn around at Confederation

 

[mdrejhon]

Someone here surely knows better than me, but I believe the isn’t any signalling to allow trains to turn around at Confederation

That's true. But, there's the potential brought by the Lewis Yard (near Grimsby), which I wrote about a decade ago at www.raisethehammer.org/article/2672

While simpler addition of signalling is what is needed, I observe that the newer 2015-built bridge over Centennial Parkway has lots of unused train lanes, built in a heavily masterplanned way to allow a nice 4-track corridor long-term.

The existing masterplans generally has plenty of modifications to switchwork, more track, combined with Lewis Yard, all of which can be used to turn the trains around easily, some of the morning bootstrap is stored there. The question is the "when".

Easier turnarounds (if CN is a bit reluctant to share) may have to wait until more spare train trackage eventually get built/extended to help deadheading from West Harbour to Lewis Yard. This benefits long term improved service towards Niagara Falls. And if you're deadheading to Lewis Yard even for a temporary hourlong idling or refueling, might as well stop all of 'em at Confederation. It's a 4-track corridor with only 2-tracks most of it, and a lot of the masterplans shows extra track being desired at least to Lewis Yard.

Maybe some train driver could chime in on the potential ideas how to extend hourly to Confederation in the natural progression (albiet feels tortise slow...) of GO.

 

[crs1026]

Someone here surely knows better than me, but I believe the isn’t any signalling to allow trains to turn around at Confederation

Exactly. Through moves are easy, but turnbacks will be problemmatic without added signalling

- Paul

 

[ssiguy2]

Why does Hamilton's downtown have 2 different stations? Doesn't that mean that either of those stations gets less trains than Aldershot because they have to head to different locations?

 

[Krypto98]

I mean, if we're considering a subway to Milton, I've proposed the idea of running a CPKC freight bypass alongside the proposed 413 highway in order to take CPKC trains off the Milton line. Similar idea to running a freight bypass for CN alongside the 407 highway in order to take CN trains off the Kitchener line.

View attachment 680322

This is more realistic than running a cpkc/cn joint bypass... not to mention the grade required at the humber river would be insane...

 

[crs1026]

That's true. But, there's the potential brought by the Lewis Yard (near Grimsby), which I wrote about a decade ago at www.raisethehammer.org/article/2672

While simpler addition of signalling is what is needed, I observe that the newer 2015-built bridge over Centennial Parkway has lots of unused train lanes, built in a heavily masterplanned way to allow a nice 4-track corridor long-term.

The existing masterplans generally has plenty of modifications to switchwork, more track, combined with Lewis Yard, all of which can be used to turn the trains around easily, some of the morning bootstrap is stored there. The question is the "when".

Easier turnarounds (if CN is a bit reluctant to share) may have to wait until more spare train trackage eventually get built/extended to help deadheading from West Harbour to Lewis Yard. This benefits long term improved service towards Niagara Falls. And if you're deadheading to Lewis Yard even for a temporary hourlong idling or refueling, might as well stop all of 'em at Confederation. It's a 4-track corridor with only 2-tracks most of it, and a lot of the masterplans shows extra track being desired at least to Lewis Yard.

Maybe some train driver could chime in on the potential ideas how to extend hourly to Confederation in the natural progression (albiet feels tortise slow...) of GO.

The obvious and technically simple solution would be to install a signalled turnout and a tail track at Confederation. One could simply negotiate an understanding with CN that the south main track between West Harbour and Confederation receives priority for GO movements, and CN will restrict its own operation to the north main track. (I suspect this agreement may already be in place, or some version thereof.... there isn't enough CN activity to find that arrangement constraining, and it is consistent with what is already happening with service to Confederation and Niagara.) As noted, there is enough land and basic civil works in place to make that a cheap and quick solution. That would easily enable hourly 2WAD service all the way to Confederation. If those trains became express at Oakville, and there were all day stopping trains that turned back at Oakville, GO service would be that much more attractive all the way to Union.

The even simpler, but more problemmatic solution, would be to utilize the Lewis Yard as the turnaround point. It already has signalling that would facilitate a turnaround. The problems with that solution are
a) some additional passing trackage might be needed as GO trains might have to pass each other between West Harbour and Lewis to achieve an hourly pattern on a single track
b) Lewis Yard sits further east, and utilizing that much more of the south track for priority GO would start to encroach on the amount of trackage that CN would still need - especially the track east of Millen
c) most critically - the general public would soon discover that GO trains run regularly (but empty) further east than Confederation, and would demand an additional station further east, possibly as far east as Fifty Road, as the trains were going that far anyways albeit empty. And if 2WAD service were extended to Fifty Road, the demand to then extend it to St Catharines and beyond would grow dramatically. And satisfying all of that would require much more investment and more intrusive negotiation with CN. (That demand would be a nice problem to have, IMHO, as GO service can easily be justified to that point and beyond. But perhaps that's a tipping point that GO or the Province are not wanting to trigger just yet. )

- Paul

 

[WB62]

The even simpler, but more problemmatic solution, would be to utilize the Lewis Yard as the turnaround point.

This is what’s happening, every non-Niagara Falls train going to and from Confederation is based out of Lewis Road, although it’s not hourly.

 

[SkylineHorizons]

Thanks for the information. Yes, it was a Westbound autorack.

Then that confirms it. The Galt sub is single track territory past Guelph jct. that stretch of track before Milton GO is just about the only spot where a long westbound freight could wait on the main without blocking any crossings further on. So it wasn't so much as the GO train having priority over the freight, it's just that the freight wasn't going anywhere at all, the eastbound GO train just had a window to squeeze out at that point. I've been on unscheduled equipment moves like that in the past, sometimes you get luck and don't have to wait for any other trains, but there's been times I've waited hours for freights to clear.

 

[chrisw]

Why does Hamilton's downtown have 2 different stations? Doesn't that mean that either of those stations gets less trains than Aldershot because they have to head to different locations?

Hamilton Go Centre only gets weekday train service. 4 trips during each rush hour.

There's quite a few constraints, I'm not an expert on it.

 

[LNahid2000]

Hamilton Go Centre only gets weekday train service. 4 trips during each rush hour.

There's quite a few constraints, I'm not an expert on it.

Mainly a single track tunnel in downtown Hamilton which is owned by CPKC.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So a 17-18 minute travel time to West Harbour? That's pretty brutal. I thought I remembered it being planned to be more like 8-9 minutes. That's an average speed of like 30km/h between the stations!

That also means there is a 34-minute travel time from Confederation to Burlington GO station.. that only takes ~10 minutes to drive between (maybe 15-20 minutes in rush hour).

No wonder they only built 100 parking spaces.. nobody will be using it. If I lived in Stoney Creek would just keep driving to Burlington GO which has far higher service levels and is far faster, even with bad traffic on the skyway.

Hamilton Centre GO is limited by the tunnel. Ironically the tunnel is actually built for two tracks - but has a curved ceiling which means it can't accommodate modern train heights with a 2-track configuration. I often wonder how much it would cost Metrolinx to "square off" the tunnel and enable a dedicated GO track into the station to enable regular all-day service to Hamilton Centre. It's certainly a far more centrally located and more useful station for the city.

The tunnel is less than 600 metres long - they could probably just close Hunter St for a year or two to dig it up, fix it, and rebuild the street.

 

[Bordercollie]

So a 17-18 minute travel time to West Harbour? That's pretty brutal. I thought I remembered it being planned to be more like 8-9 minutes. That's an average speed of like 30km/h between the stations!

That also means there is a 34-minute travel time from Confederation to Burlington GO station.. that only takes ~10 minutes to drive between (maybe 15-20 minutes in rush hour).

No wonder they only built 100 parking spaces.. nobody will be using it. If I lived in Stoney Creek would just keep driving to Burlington GO which has far higher service levels and is far faster, even with bad traffic on the skyway.

Hamilton Centre GO is limited by the tunnel. Ironically the tunnel is actually built for two tracks - but has a curved ceiling which means it can't accommodate modern train heights with a 2-track configuration. I often wonder how much it would cost Metrolinx to "square off" the tunnel and enable a dedicated GO track into the station to enable regular all-day service to Hamilton Centre. It's certainly a far more centrally located and more useful station for the city.

The tunnel is less than 600 metres long - they could probably just close Hunter St for a year or two to dig it up, fix it, and rebuild the street.

Have you tried to drive to Niagara from Oakville on a Saturday at noon? It could take you two hours to get from Oakville to Niagara falls. And that's in good weather. Imagine if it's snowing?

It's not about quick travel Times. It's about not having to drive and a consistent schedule.