[T3G]

Realistically, I hate the railways and I mostly agree with you. But I'll be the devils advocate and point out CP's mainline being constrained could finically harm the country

I don't know how many trains run on the Galt sub today, but a few years ago it was around 7 or 8 - really long ones, to be sure, but once they were out of the way, they're out. If the number remains similar then I can't see how much of a constraint it really could be to have passenger trains running every 30-60 minutes on it.

Someone else had suggested Metrolinx just build their own 2 tracks in the corridor. If CP is amenable to that, it is just a matter of $$$ and is doable.

That approach has its own set of complications - there aren't many locations along the corridor where there's room to add 2 more tracks without running afoul of the various industrial lots. The Humber River crossing would also need an entirely new bridge constructed. And I think there was also a discussion somewhere of how, if ML were compelled to build their own tracks, they would have to rebuild all the stations to sit on the south side of the corridor, though I'm not entirely sure as to why. Taking all of that into account, I'm not sure how doable it actually is.

The easiest solution would be to declare a provincial emergency, and evacuate Milton as a failed town.

 

[sixrings]

I don't know how many trains run on the Galt sub today, but a few years ago it was around 7 or 8 - really long ones, to be sure, but once they were out of the way, they're out. If the number remains similar then I can't see how much of a constraint it really could be to have passenger trains running every 30-60 minutes on it.


That approach has its own set of complications - there aren't many locations along the corridor where there's room to add 2 more tracks without running afoul of the various industrial lots. The Humber River crossing would also need an entirely new bridge constructed. And I think there was also a discussion somewhere of how, if ML were compelled to build their own tracks, they would have to rebuild all the stations to sit on the south side of the corridor, though I'm not entirely sure as to why. Taking all of that into account, I'm not sure how doable it actually is.

The easiest solution would be to declare a provincial emergency, and evacuate Milton as a failed town.

Throw Mississauga in there. At least the majority of Mississauga which is north of QEW.

 

[crs1026]

I don't know how many trains run on the Galt sub today, but a few years ago it was around 7 or 8 - really long ones, to be sure, but once they were out of the way, they're out. If the number remains similar then I can't see how much of a constraint it really could be to have passenger trains running every 30-60 minutes on it.

The issue isn't the number of trains (which is lower than ever) so much as the number of key grade crossings that need to be grade separated so that those fewer but longer trains don't block grade crossings when they are held to be woven around two way GO trains. Plus the amount of contingency needed for track inspection and maintenance.

Plus, it's a case where getting it right the first time is prudent. Implementing hourly trains as a better-than nothing temporary fix, and then trying to upgrade to 15 minute or better service later, would be very difficult and costly, and the customer experience would be painful.

Milton needs to wait until there is the money and the labour to do it right.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Because megacorporations have more rights than private individuals.

No one ever bats an eye about people being kicked out of their homes, but if you so much as think about suggesting that freight trains should be forced to (because they won't do it of their own accord, or without an obscene price tag) play nice with passenger trains, lots of people start handwringing about how will the poor multi billion dollar corporation be able to do business?!?!?!? (Apparently, European countries where the state owns rail infrastructure don't have freight. Interesting.)

The amount of freight carried by rail in North America, and the resultant impact on the economy, is orders of magnitude higher that any European country.

 

[T3G]

Then figure it out, somehow.

Sorry to be dismissive but I am at my wit's end with the absolute garbage levels of service provided on this God forsaken corridor. Trains that barely run, buses that are almost always full, and almost always stuck in traffic even if they are not - and if someone wants to do the intrepid thing and go down to Oakville to catch the Lakeshore train, they can wait an hour for the next bus during rush hour and two hours outside of rush hour, and not at all on weekends. No bus only lanes, trains that close their doors in your face at 8:29 despite the schedule saying they leave at 8:30, it's absolutely pathetic. If I had any alternatives I would go literally anywhere else at this point, but instead I'm going to have to rely on this garbage for the next 4 years of uni. And then Torontonians want to pull up the ladder by tearing down the Gardiner, and making our commutes even worse. Ford taking that option from the city was the only good thing he ever did.

The economy is important, but it's not more important than having a genuine quality of life.

 

[sixrings]

Why can’t freight be moved at night. Why can’t it be a freight line from midnight to 5 am

 

[smallspy]

Why can’t freight be moved at night. Why can’t it be a freight line from midnight to 5 am

Trains are already running on the line from midnight to 5am. But there are two major problems to trying to isolate all of those operations to just that small window: One is that there are more trains that run on the line than could be moved in that 5 hour window. The second is the planning required - as well as the luck - to make all of the trains show up in the right location to be on the line from between Midnight to 5am is simply not tenable.

Dan

 

[Bojaxs]

Why can’t freight be moved at night. Why can’t it be a freight line from midnight to 5 am

LSW essentially does this already, but that's because it's branch line for CN. They can send a train at night to go to the Ford plant and petroleum refinery in Mississauga at night to drop off and pick up rail cars.

It's not realistic to ask a rail operator to use a main line only at night. You're asking CP to time their trains coming in from Chicago/ U.S. to Toronto to only run along the Milton line at night. Which would have a domino effect on their trains across the rest of the network. You're basically asking them to redo their entire network's schedule across the entire country.

Not to mention CPKC's Intermodal Yard in Vaughan which would be receiving most of these trains (in regards to the Milton line) wouldn't be able to handle all these trains coming into the Yard at once within this 6 hour window. On top of them desperately trying to get their trains out of the yard before the 5am deadline.

IIRC, CN has some kind of agreement with GO where for roughly 2-3 hours in the morning and another 2-3 hour window in the evening, CN won't move any trains out of the Brampton Yard due to those hours being deemed "commuter hours".

 

[afransen]

Someone else had suggested Metrolinx just build their own 2 tracks in the corridor. If CP is amenable to that, it is just a matter of $$$ and is doable.

I really don't understand the reason why this would not be feasible. Seems like just a matter money for grade separations, some corridor widening, bridges. Maybe there would be need for a fly-over if the freight railway needs to switch sides. Good argument to switch Milton Line to EMUs so such a flyover is smaller/less costly. If there are (legitimate) concerns about catenary over the freight tracks at cross-overs, some small batteries in the EMUs could be used to bridge these segments, and is useful regardless in yards and potentially the Union Station corridor that may take a long time to be electrified.

 

[Bojaxs]

I really don't understand the reason why this would not be feasible. Seems like just a matter money for grade separations, some corridor widening, bridges. Maybe there would be need for a fly-over if the freight railway needs to switch sides. Good argument to switch Milton Line to EMUs so such a flyover is smaller/less costly. If there are (legitimate) concerns about catenary over the freight tracks at cross-overs, some small batteries in the EMUs could be used to bridge these segments, and is useful regardless in yards and potentially the Union Station corridor that may take a long time to be electrified.

CP owns all the land adjacent to the tracks. They want to hold on to this land incase at some point in the future they determine they need to increase train capacity in this portion of their network and need to lay down a third track.

If they do opt to sell this land to MX, they'll charge a sky high premium or every inch of land they sell to them. Probably to the point that MX has determined it not to be financially viable. Also consider that MX would have to design all the GO stations to accommodate freight trains running through, and like you pointed out, doing projects such as grade separations would require CP's blessings, and would require CP and GO to work together. You can't have a crossing where CP is at grade while the GO tracks right beside them are grade separated.

 

[afransen]

CP owns all the land adjacent to the tracks. They want to hold on to this land incase at some point in the future they determine they need to increase train capacity in this portion of their network and need to lay down a third track.

If they do opt to sell this land to MX, they'll charge a sky high premium or every inch of land they sell to them. Probably to the point that MX has determined it not to be financially viable. Also consider that MX would have to design all the GO stations to accommodate freight trains running through, and like you pointed out, doing projects such as grade separations would require CP's blessings, and would require CP and GO to work together. You can't have a crossing where CP is at grade while the GO tracks right beside them are grade separated.

Maybe some elevated guideway for the GO line at tight spots in the corridor? Or would it be prohibitive to build an elevated guideway that could withstand a train derailment hitting a support column?

I mean, we can hit the 'easy' button and build a $30 billion subway to Milton, but it seems like a bit of creativity should be able to get something done. The level of service on the Milton line is pretty dire for the demand, and the province's call for intensification of cities.

I'd also say that absent highway tolls, we need to consider dedicated bus lanes on the QEW/Gardiner to make GO bus transit times feasible. Maybe a secondary terminus (Exhibition station with eventual OL service) to avoid the congestion of getting to the Union Station bus terminal.

 

[dougtoronto]

is my memory failing me or didn't the Ontario government announce like a year or two ago that they'd be building separate tracks on the Milton line to make it more reliable and usable for passenger service?

 

[Bojaxs]

Maybe some elevated guideway for the GO line at tight spots in the corridor? Or would it be prohibitive to build an elevated guideway that could withstand a train derailment hitting a support column?

I mean, we can hit the 'easy' button and build a $30 billion subway to Milton, but it seems like a bit of creativity should be able to get something done. The level of service on the Milton line is pretty dire for the demand, and the province's call for intensification of cities.

I'd also say that absent highway tolls, we need to consider dedicated bus lanes on the QEW/Gardiner to make GO bus transit times feasible. Maybe a secondary terminus (Exhibition station with eventual OL service) to avoid the congestion of getting to the Union Station bus terminal.

I mean, if we're considering a subway to Milton, I've proposed the idea of running a CPKC freight bypass alongside the proposed 413 highway in order to take CPKC trains off the Milton line. Similar idea to running a freight bypass for CN alongside the 407 highway in order to take CN trains off the Kitchener line.

 

[north-of-anything]

is my memory failing me or didn't the Ontario government announce like a year or two ago that they'd be building separate tracks on the Milton line to make it more reliable and usable for passenger service?

Anything to win an election in the 905.

 

[Bordercollie]

I don't know how many trains run on the Galt sub today, but a few years ago it was around 7 or 8 - really long ones, to be sure, but once they were out of the way, they're out. If the number remains similar then I can't see how much of a constraint it really could be to have passenger trains running every 30-60 minutes on it.


That approach has its own set of complications - there aren't many locations along the corridor where there's room to add 2 more tracks without running afoul of the various industrial lots. The Humber River crossing would also need an entirely new bridge constructed. And I think there was also a discussion somewhere of how, if ML were compelled to build their own tracks, they would have to rebuild all the stations to sit on the south side of the corridor, though I'm not entirely sure as to why. Taking all of that into account, I'm not sure how doable it actually is.

The easiest solution would be to declare a provincial emergency, and evacuate Milton as a failed town.

So then build a new corridor and let the freight railway use it. Metrolinx can use the existing one.